Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be getting annoyed at people booing the pope

193 replies

yawningprincess · 17/09/2010 19:35

i know the children abuse issues are pretty horendous but why do people have to stand there booing- its so rude! in other cultures such disrespect simply wouldn't be allowed.

OP posts:
GinandChocolate · 18/09/2010 23:25

Sponsorship of the Pope's visit by the British government is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly because the Pope has failed to condemn the illegal behaviour of people in his organisation. Child abuse is a criminal offence - no other head of a large business would be allowed to ignore such behaviour of even a small minority of its employees without comment. And lets face it the Catholic Church is one very large and successful business.

Secondly he has come here at the invitation of the Queen and the expense of the British tax payer and then he sells tickets to his fans - hardly the behaviour of a statesman. Do we get the money from the events to off-set the costs of policing his visit?

Thirdly he shows no respect for the law - it is apparently acceptable for him make homophobic statements which would not be acceptable from anyone else.

Finally he is a very rude guest who has shown no respect for us as his host country and so I would say that yes on balance it is acceptable to boo him and to protest in other peaceful ways.

jjones · 18/09/2010 23:31

It is not the catholic religion per sae I have a problem with but that man as Pope is wrong. He covered up so much suffering as a cardinal and is rewarded by getting promoted! Now he say's the use of condoms to stop the spread of HIV is morally wrong, isn't what he has done morally wrong.

mummysgoingmad · 18/09/2010 23:34

i'm catholic (well used to be) i went to church every sunday even mightnight mass on xmas eve. But i gave turned my back on the church for several reasons.

I went to a catholic school, i loved it unill i hit 7. I got a new teacher she hated me, i was really behind the rest of the class i was seriously ill with asthma and spent most of the winter in hospital. When i was allowed back to the school, i was hyper-active because of all the steriods they had filled me with. She would shout right in my face, stick her boney finger right into my chest bone, call me thick, make an example of me ect ect. What topped it off was when her and 1 of the nuns called me names like dart board (i have exzema) great chracter building eh!

I watched a documentary a while back about a irish priest that had abused children all over the world as he had done missionary work. This priests crimes were covered up and he was sent to various other places to work with children. If my memory serves me america wanted him extradited back to their country as allegations had been made to the authorites. anyway this priest was interviewed and he showed no remorse no sorrow nothing.

Once i researched a bit about some of the awful, terrible things the catholic church have done i couldn't have anything else to do with them. They are sick!

Mowiol · 19/09/2010 00:09

Just a point on the Pope being a member of the Hitler Youth:

ALL young adolescents were members during Hitler's time in power- they were required to join (bit like conscription) so he cannot really be blamed for that.

He was, however, the Cardinal given the remit for investigating and dealing with the child abuse scandal and he actively covered it up.

It was reported recently that more than one parish priest was involved in terrorist activities in Northern Ireland.

It is my understanding that excommunication is the harshest penalty in the Catholic Church? - so why aren't priests who abuse their position (in ANY way) excommunicated and drummed out of the church.

Maybe if the Vatican was seen to deal harshly with offenders they might claw back some respect at least.

I am an atheist and I was annoyed beyond belief at the exposure given on TV to this visit which only means something to about 10% of the population of the UK.

ItsGrimUpNorth · 19/09/2010 06:51

"One would also assume that if our child were abused, the abuser would be brought swiftly to justice"

Isn't that what the victims of paedophile priests are complaining about? That the abusers are not being brought swiftly to justice? Nothing is really being done? That's what planet I'm on.

And, no, Pan, with respect, I really don't see much outrage. Show me. All I see is a few victim groups forcing the issues to the fore. If they didn't force the issue, then I don't think much would be said really. I don't see any more outrage than that. Of course, there could be, there's no denying that. But I don't see it. That's not a massive extrapolation or assumption. That's what I'm seeing.

Pan · 19/09/2010 10:21

Grim - what do you think makes it possible for victim groups and individuals to be heard? To the point where there is direct and public contact with the Pope, under the glare of the media spotlight? How on earth does that happen? It's the bravery of the people who were abused standing up, combined with the 'outrage' of people both inside and outside the church who are supporting them.

I'm not a practising Catholic, but both my sisters are, the the groundswell of opinion and reaction has been growing for years. As an organisation which claims to be the message bearer of the teachings of Christ, to be directed to deal with the consequence of clerics abuse of children would be a real shocker, as it should be.

If you are 'on the outside', as you are Grim, there is no reason for you to know of or see 'outrage' and I wouldn't expect you to. There isn't enough being done as yet. When the practice is for the church to immediately refer to the civil authorities any case of alleged abuse would be a start, but I am doubtful of that happening for a long time. I think that gets bound up with the principle of the separation of the church from state and notions of 'accountability' that went with it.

FaithandReason · 19/09/2010 10:42

Sorry this is going to be such a long post but I feel I need to do it.

Of course people have a right to demonstrate against the visit and, speaking as a catholic, although it would be nice if there were no boos it is within their right. The boos are certainly not the worst part when you consider all the personal insults directed at the pope personally, as an individual, through the banners and speeches at the protest yesterday.

In the main I think most of the protesters were dignified but in some sections unfortunately the protest has become less about "the church" and doctrine and more about insults which I think really demeans it. in terms of doctrinal issues, Pope Benedict is no different to his predecessor and will in all likelihood be no different doctrinally to his successor. I find it really sad that the protest has become about judging, condemning and attacking an individual.

The pope is the spiritual leader of Catholics so it?s his ?job? to give us guidance and speak out against behaviours or viewpoints (but unlike his critics, not the individuals who hold them) which he feels are not in accordance with the Truth, even if these views are not popular. Excepting where he?s been invited to speak outwith a church setting (e.g. the Palace of Westminster on Friday) he is addressing primarily the ?faithful?, if anyone else wants to listen that?s up to them, we?ve all been given free will.

The protestors are trying to be politic and playing a popularity game by saying it is not the church or ordinary Catholics that they are protesting against but really you cannot separate the pope from the church. All committed Catholics, together and in unity with the pope, are the church. This oneness, unity or community is the essence of Catholicism. It?s not for nothing that Rev Ian Paisley et al call Catholics ?papists?!

Catholics view themselves as part of a worldwide family with the pope (papa) as literally their "Holy Father". This may be very difficult for the non-committed catholic to understand but it is a strong, emotional and spiritual tie - just look at the coverage of the visit and you'll see the obvious joy and elation- and yes dare I say love - of many Catholics when they see the pope.

Imagine if it was your father being criticised or personally insulted and you might get a feeling for how many Catholics feel. Worse still, would be if your father or a member of your family had done something wrong, or there was abuse within your family. You would feel hurt, sad and ashamed, not just for the criticisms received, but for the wrong action itself.

But a lot of Catholics, particularly those at the events, and myself included, don't feel the criticisms of the pope are justified. They are saddened and sickened by the abuse scandal and recognise there is fault within the church in terms of the way it was handled. They recognise that those guilty need to be brought to justice and everything needs to be done to ensure it never happens again. But they recognise it?s not as simple as many would hope and simply not right or true to point the finger at one man, even if he is the leader, even if this would be most expedient.

What?s more they are doubtful of the case against him as presented by the media whom they see as being over enthusiastic about conspiracy theroies at best and downright anti-catholic at worst. This is all against the backdrop of 80 million Dan Brown books sold and incredibly these seemed to have shaped the public psyche. People are very receptive to anti-catholic press and don?t need much persuasion.

www.crikey.com.au/2010/04/23/here%E2%80%99s-a-crazy-idea-what-if-the-pope-is-innocent/

I suppose that as the leader of the church the pope is the focus for the love for the church which is felt by Catholics ? hence the happy scenes at Westminster and Hyde Park. In the same way he is also the focus for all the anger, hurt and hatred felt by the protesters and those who have been hurt by the church- it's what is in people's hearts. I suppose this is quite poignant, as the theme of the visit is ?heart speaks unto heart?.

Kaloki · 19/09/2010 11:51

How is it not that simple about the abuse? If someone abuses their power in order to sexually abuse young children what is complicated about the fact that they should be punished? Why does the church find this so difficult to do?

Are you honestly saying that people reading the Dan Brown books is the reason why they disagree with the church?

Also it isn't just about the abuse (though that is obviously a major thing). Allowing holocaust deniers to be part of the church, coming over to our country at cost to us and complaining about it, saying condoms shouldn't be given out in countries where AIDS is rife.. I could go on. The catholic church is a flawed organisation which appears to reward some of the nastiest crimes.

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Pan · 19/09/2010 12:03

and no doubt you will 'go on' without paying much attention to what is being said to you.

Yes the catholic hierarchy is 'flawed', and some of it lies at Ratzinger's door. Evenso, a lot of stuff we read IS indeed a nice media job, focussing on partial reporting of the full facts, and letting people read what will 'outrage' them and so sell media space.

Kaloki · 19/09/2010 12:04

Not really helpful there shellio Hmm

But you know, try and convince yourself you are morally superior by wishing someone dead/injured.

Pan · 19/09/2010 12:06

I have reported that post, shellio. Despite the weight of consideration behind your opinion.

Kaloki · 19/09/2010 12:08

I'm listening Pan but so far the sole argument I've heard against the pope protesters is that they are rude.

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:12

Whatever pan report all you like just because you dont like what i say! Go crying to mummy! Whatever happened to freedom of speech???

Pan · 19/09/2010 12:14

no, it's right to boo the Pope if you wish to protest against him. But that OP was left a long time ago by a lot of posters including you.

Even over in a 'philosphy/religion' thread started to celebrate the Pope's visit was taken over by various posters who wanted to vent their own sort of fury. Is there not enough threads to d othat on without barging into a thread that was celebrating a spiritual event for millions of people? Apparently not.

Aetheists and non-believers are BY FAR the most zealot.....

Kaloki · 19/09/2010 12:18

Good thing I am not an atheist then.

Pan people have gone onto threads started by people who do not like the pope and what he stands for to argue with them, why shouldn't it work the other way? The church has done a lot of damage, yes it has done good too though mostly on a local level.

On this particular thread we are just explaining why we find the pope's visit unacceptable and saying why we agree with the protesters - which is completely on topic.

happiestblonde · 19/09/2010 12:21

faithandreason well said. Thank you. As a dedicated Catholic, I am incredibly happy to have the pope here and really think the protests are incredibly disrespectful - Shellio you should be truly ashamed.

I won't repeat Faith's post but she is entirely right on all respects regarding the terrible child abuse incidents.

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:22

pan its people like you that i worry about. You think you know it all, well you dont! Not everyone in the world agrees with you (thankfully). As i said before everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Pan · 19/09/2010 12:24

true kaloki about 'other threads' - perhaps I am getting a bit defensive about stuff. Just wrankles a lot when people with noooo spiritual dimension to their lives suddenly feel licensed to dictate to others.

time to step away....Smile

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:26

Loosen up everyone! I was only trying to say the pope needs to suffer the way he has let so many suffer. I dont understand why people worship this man????

Pan · 19/09/2010 12:27

no, I know I don't know it all. But I think I know 'offensive' when I read it. Glad to see it's been deleted.

Kaloki · 19/09/2010 12:29

It works both ways unfortunately Pan. For me personally I couldn't care less what people do or don't believe and I enjoy learning about others religions. I hate the people can't just agree to disagree.

My problem is with the organisations that operate under the name of religion, and use that privilege to do bad things or cover up bad things.

babybarrister · 19/09/2010 12:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

shellio · 19/09/2010 12:30

Yeah yeah good for you pan, well done!!