to be getting annoyed at people booing the pope

[yawningprincess]

i know the children abuse issues are pretty horendous but why do people have to stand there booing- its so rude! in other cultures such disrespect simply wouldn't be allowed.

Pan, the church was not slow to pick up on child abuse. It actively sought to hide the criminals who perpetrated this crime. That's not any kind of disbelief - that's actively, coldly seeking to maintain the status quo regardless of what poor little child was regularly made to have sex with grown men. Unforgiveable.

Yep, history of persecution against Catholics. Blacks. Jews. Women. And? So what? I'm critical of the RCC's protection of paedophiles in their ranks and suddenly I'm a rabid antic Catholic? I don't think so. That's such an easy way out.

Grim - no-one is suggesting you are a rabid anti-catholic at all.

but yes the church was slow to pick up on child abuse - at least the fact that it was becoming to be talked about much more than previously. But having child abuse 'being talked about' was something our society didn't do across the board. And still isn't, to my mind.

Everybody on MN is quite happy to talk about the abuse and coverup of abuse in the Catholic Church but what about the coverup and abuse of girls by Pakistani Muslim community?
and the Catholics Church s stance on homosexuality is nothing compared to Islams stance which is Homosexuality is punishable by death

come on people we should be able to take the piss out of a religion that has a good way round child abuse. Marry them
In Islam you can have sex with a 9 year old girl if you force her to marry you.

people have right to protest and jeer.pope is head of catholic church he has to expect antipathy over abuse perpetrated by priests

Do we have the right to jeer and protest other religions too?

have legal right to show dissent and disapproval on any topic

Do we?
did you see the topic a few weeks ago about Pakistani peadophile rings that was deleated?

Right now, barrygarlow, we're talking about the RCC.

Nobody is suggesting that abuse doesn't go on in other religions/cultures but, this particular example we're discussing on this thread is topical because of the pope's visit to the U.K..

If you want to talk about other churches that commit criminal activities against children, please do start another thread about it so that it can be openly discussed on MN.

And fwiw, nobody is taking the piss.

If you look down the thread, Pan, you will see that it would seem to criticise the pope is to be anti Catholic.

Also, it is a 'state' visit, so more open to being protested against, IYSWIM. He was visiting the Queen and politicians as head of his 'country'.

am suspecting the thread BG refers to was pulled NOT because of the subject matter.

sorry grim - not read, or at least interpreted that in that way. The Pope isn't the church, and thank the Lord for that, as it were. Women priests, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, AIDS - there is enough to indict him.

The church ahs spent too much time talking to itself and hasn't moved on. A friend of mine who is a sort of insider insist the occassion of the "Second Vatican Council" circa 1962, was where a cross roads occurred and the traditionalists resisted the liberals, and with it Liberation Theology, and set us on the road to where the RC church is today.

barrygarlow are you really pulling the "you wouldn't say this to another religion" card? Because I think you'll find that we would. (Atheists especially aren't known for tolerating any religious belief as justification for awful behaviour)

IMO the Catholic Church has a hell of a lot to answer for, not least the death of my uncle.

He (A) was thirteen when he was sent to the Artane school for boys in Dublin, for mitching school. His elder brother (B) was there already, again for mitching - they had both gone home for the weekend but because B was to turn 16 over the weekend, B didn't have to go back. Uncle A had previously told his brother that one of the Christian brothers had touched him and made him do things to him. B told him to speak to the priest after mass. A did this, and instead of helping him, and stopping the abuse, the priest raped him. Repeatedly. Faced with the prospect of going back to school where the abuse would continue and this time with no older brother to look out for him, he killed himself. Thirteen years old and he hung himself from the bannister on the stairs, all so he didn't have to go back and face the daily abuse.

Awful. Horrendous. But what made it worse was the fact my granny did not believe a priest could do such a thing. She was from an age where priests were revered, they could do no wrong. They were men of God and would not, could not do such things. To think such a thing of them was blasphemous.

That is why the abuse in the Catholic church has gone on for so long unquestioned, because these men knew that they could get away with it.

deemented, so sorry for what you went through.
I've heard so many stories about the Christian Brothers.
And you are right - they did it because they could and there was no one to stand up for your brother.

If it's a "state" visit, why is he acting not like a "statesman" but like a churchman?

I see curryfreak is still going on with the stuck record and hasn't come out with a single positive reason to support the Pope.

deemented and total horror.

And you wonder why people feel such anger, suspicion and disgust? It's just horrible.

Demented, yours is a truly horrible story, I'm sad to hear it.

I really think it is the key to why things were handled as they were (and please do not for a second assume that I think it was the right way to handle it).

The fact that your Gran didn't believe it when it was her own son (as in, I presume you mean she didn't believe it could happen, not that it happened).

Not so long ago. Paedophiles barely existed, and I mean statistically, not in reality. A previous poster mentioned that if 10 adults weren't aware of child abuse then it didn't happen. Men were "allowed" to beat their wives, parents were allowed to hit their children.

I was not alive for most of that time but it definetely happened and this was the time when Ratzinger was being so ineffectual in bringing child abusers to justice.

Things have changed. Corporal punishment in schools is ended, men are no longer allowed to get away with beating their wives and children, rape is dealt with differently and child abuse is dealt with differently too.

I think that Ratzinger (at the time) was guilty of covering up child abuse by not standing up and being counted, he brushed it under the carpet because that was an option at the time. Nowdays, one would like to think someone in his position would be all over it and the perpetrators brought to justice quickly.

I just wish he would turn around and damn child abusers and set out a means of dealing with abuse within the church for and from today. Whilst he puts out a stream of progressively more severe statements regarding child abuse the church is damaged further.

I think Catholic bashing is rife. Any poster on these threads who isn't religious appears to be delighted to take the opportunity to point out how ridiculous it is to have faith.
And true, it is ridiculous, there is no proof and that's why it's called faith.

Booing is rude, but you kow what, I think it's fair enough. The booers have taken the time to travel and stand and wait their turn to show their displeasure and good on 'em. They're acting upon their beliefs. As will I tomorrow Cold Comfort when I will be genuflecting.

(I mean really CCF, fk off!)

BDim witted sniping like that makes me !

UQD - it IS a state visit, or so advertised - but it's tricky to NOT act like a churchman when you are head of the universal Catholic Church, and are also doing meet ups with Archbishops of CC and CofE. Doin' a bit of PR on the side seems a good idea.

btw, refering to Second Vatican Council 1962 (where the RC Church chose a traditionalist path, rather than a radical one) I googled it, to find that Ratzinger attended it as a "theological adviser"...which kind of makes sense when we look at where we are today.

One thing I DO agree with the Pope is the lack of a spiritual dialogue in this country. BUT..it has been CofE for centuries, so I am unsure what it was he was expecting.....

I can't regard Wiki as a valid source but I do know this pope was a member of Hitler Youth. Wow. What a great choice for pope!

What is also worrying is that if the abuse of children is still going on today, are the parents so devout that they will still regard it as unthinkable and therefore unbelievable? I mean, not many seem to be particularly outraged by the massive abuse that happened in the past - they still unquestioningly line the streets to worship a man who is like a god and can do no wrong.

did you two read the wiki article right to the end? Hardly reads like a water tight case, does it?

Itsgrim I suspect that catholic parents realise that their children are unlikely to be abused by someone in the church and indeed if they are going to be abused it is most likely to be by a famiy member.
One would also assume that if our child were abused, the abuser would be brought swiftly to justice.

What planet are you on?

sorry for the poor typing. I can spell, honest!

"I mean, not many seem to be particularly outraged by the massive abuse that happened in the past".. really Grim? Is that so? You're extrapolating/making assumptions on people's motives and drives you know nothing of. With respect.

and as I said earlier, our children statistically, won't be being abused by priests. It will be someone MUCH closer to home.

FWIW, this is taking me back to a discussion on the feminism thread in dadsnet last week, where feminists rightly complained that non-feminists would feel free to tell feminists where they think they have gone wrong and what they should be thinking and feeling and doing to put things right.