Not Really AIBU but amusing twist on old favourite: Disabled/Baby Change Loos

[QueenSconetta]

I know its quite a regular topic here, and I myself have moaned complained whined discussed parents using a disabled toilets with their children.

The other day I was a supermarket in a different town and was quite amused to see all the old ladies going into the baby change room cos it was big enough to fit their trollies in! I did wonder how they got on with using the mini toilet though

One can never win this one me thinks.

Lily, we are agreeing then so when are you approaching mumsnet to start this campaign!

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The disabled toilet is intended for people with disability.That means any disabilitythat requires additional help.

It is not intended only for people using wheel chairs.

People in wheelchairs would not mind other people with a disability using the disabled toilet.
Are you under the impression that only people in wheelchairs are disabled

Only 8 out of every 100 disabled people are likely to be wheelchair users.

In the general population, the stats are these (for those who like this sort of thing): (from the major charities )

Reading difficulties 1 person in 5 in the country
Arthritis 1 in every 20 people
Dyslexia 1 in every 25 people
Hearing 1 in 30
Sight 1 in 30
Learning 1 in 40
Dyspraxia 1 in 53
ADHD 1 in 58
Speech 1 in 60
Mental Health Conditions 1 in 60
Dementia 1 in 80
Wheelchair users 1 in 80
Autism 1 in 64 (some say 1 in 100)
Epilepsy 1 in 133
Crohns Disease/Coeliac 1 in 153
M.E/CFS 1 in 240
Tourettes 1 in 240
Cerebral Palsy 1 in 500
Multiple Sclerosis 1 in 700
Down's Syndrome 1 in 1,000

Hidetheelephant - "People with learning disabled children might think it's OK to use the disabled loo cos their child doesn't like crowds, or hand driers or queing, but I want to know if people with wheelchairs think this is OK".

It has been explained to you that the disabled facilities, should be used by disabled people on a NEEDS basis, not just because you have a disability.

Seems you are trying to establish a hierarchy of disabilities? ie does having a physical disability trump any other disability.

Then the answer is no, you dont need to have a physical disability to use the disabled toilet. Just a disability that makes it impossible for you to use the 'normal' toilets.

Claw3- This is your opinion.

I think you and pagwatch are both being patronising to to Hidetheelephant. You seem to think anyone with a different opinion to you is stupid. There is no law that says only certain people can use a disabled toilet, it is provided so that those who can't access ordinary toilets can- primarily this is wheelcahir users- due to the access issue. A child who is afraid of dryers can also use it if their parent wishes them to (special needs or not).

You may be right. I have found it very difficult to try and explain the same thing repeatedly. I was not trying to be patronising I was trying to iunderstand what on earth the point was.

Usually when I am being rude to people I just tell them I think they are being a stupid twat. So rarely try to patronise.
And I still don't really get what the issue is. Your final paragraph is pretty much what I have been saying - it is not about a wheelchair it is about genuine need.

But in all honesty doesn't every one tend to the view that those who reject their arguments are a bit stupid? I often think 'gosh that very smart person has a strongly differeing opinion to me' but I also think 'that person who thinks double parking is ok is a twit'. i am pretty sure you have a similar opinion of me - or is it ok when you do it

Chip, I didnt think i had been patronising to anyone, i thought it was a civil debate, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I did notice that you tried to join the debate earlier with "what self righteous people" glad you found the confidence to finally spit it and address whom it was directed at.

Chip, just in case you are interested disabled toilets were not primarily JUST for wheelchair users, it included wheelchair users, hence why the disabled toilets were made bigger etc so wheelchair users could use them.

Not my opinion, a fact. Just in case you find that patronising.

You know what i will be bloody patronising now, because some of you people make me sick.

Many parents/disabled people and a few decent people on this thread have taken the time to try and explain why disabled people need these facilities and put up with a lot of abuse in the process.

Disabled toilets were designed and built and intended for disabled and chronically sick people (chronically sick definition = "blind, deaf, dumb or is substantially and permanently handicapped by illness, injury, or congenital deformity"

So there is a LAW that states these facilities are needed by disabled people, unfortunately they didnt pass a LAW to say who didnt need to use them.

Clearly the Government thought the public had an ounce of decency and common sense. They have given some of you far too much credit.

Now stick that in your pipe, up your arse or whether you like.

Even with the changing table in the disabled loo it is pretty easy to keep it "available" for someone who needs it more. If I am changing a nappy I leave the door open. That way if someone needs it right that second I can grab DS and hop out of the way.

Amazed that anyone would use the disabled toilet unless they absolutely had too.

I'm not sure that it's actually correct to say that disabled loos are intended for use only by disabled people. As I understand it, one of the major points made by campaigners for fully accessible facilities is that the design points they advocate are better for many, many people, and that architects who follow these facilities will benefit everyone.

It's this argument that is one of the reasons why when you apply for planning permission, you have to put in a 'design and access statement', and to consider the ways in which your design is accessible to people with a range of needs.

At my work, we only have 'disabled' loos - or rather, we only have loos which are fully accessible to everyone. Yes, very good for wheelchair users, but very handy for me needing to change out of my cycling gear, or for an elderly client needing an extra handrail to help themselves off the loo.

Grendellsmum- I agree with you. Many small establishemnts which only provide one toilet do make it an accessible one.

But many on here wouldn't want all toilets to be accessible as then they would still have to share with the general public and they couldn't guarantee that the toilet would be free when they needed it.

I think its time to rename these loo's. They are not diasbled, but enabling they make it possible for everyone to leave their homes and live life to the full, what ever your reason for needing them, be it using a wheelchair, having need of a sink next to the loo, or a child who is unable to be in crowds or near noise or having young children who need help or can't be left outside the cubicle

There will be a PC name somewhere, but how about 'living life to the full loo'

How about "Easier Life Loos" ??

1. We are talking about PUBLIC toilets ie supermarket, shopping centre, cafe, etc, etc. Not workplace toilets.

1. Public disabled toilets were/are intended for the use only by disabled people.

1. Yes there has been a campaign to make ALL public toilets accessible to everyone including mothers with prams, baby changing facilities, elderly, tourists, people with luggage, fathers with daughters, families, disabled people etc, etc. NOT lets just make the disabled toilets available to everyone.

I give up.

Well I have mostly hidden disabilities. And wearing a sling would be lethal for my 6month old since I have seizures. Sometimes using the disabled loo's is my only option since I have limited movement with my joints and small cubicles are too hard to move around in. The buggy cubicle is usually taken up by someone with one of those shopping trolleys.

I've even been refused access to buses with my pushchair because someone wants to take up one of the spaces with their trolley. Yes thats right, some people consider a bag more important than a baby or someone in a wheelchair. But then by appearances I'm a normal looking mum with a young baby in a pushchair. So I'm used to abuse when I need help with my disabilities.

So a cafe that that has only one toilet, that is a disabled access toilet expects it's other customers to go elsewhere - give me a break! And one of my local shops, which I regularly use that has 3 ladies toilets, and one accessible toilet just put a pushchair sign on the door for fun, not because they intended it to be used by parents finding it hard to get the pram in the regular toilets?

LOl at 'give me a break' from poster lecturing me about my manner

You are being very combative about this?
I don't think anyone is saying that an establishment with only one toilet should turn people away . Where?

I thought the whole thrust of the thread has been about whether people with no disabilities should use the disabled loo in order to avoid queuing. People with disabilities have tried to explain whythe need to queue can be disasterous in the face of comments about entitrlement but I can't see where anyone is saying that one toilet establishments should only cater for disabilities. I would be against that and think it foolish.
So are you just trying to make everyone disagreeing with you sound unreasonable? That doesn't make you sound reasonable in comparison ( just in case you think it does)

In our area we have a radar key system, so that only people with that key can use the disabled toilets, I assume you have to apply to the local council for one.

I have used disabled toilets when dcs were little and I had a double buggy, which couldn't get into the main entrance of the toilets let alone get anywhere near a cubicle.

Bruffin - it is a good idea but unfortunately you don't need to be disabled to get on and they end up on places like ebay anyway

I am going to bow out. Coversation is going round in circles a bit.
But thanks to all who actually tried to discuss it .
On day we will live in a Utopia of pristine accessible toilets, shiney buggy accessible ones and faboulous ladies loo. The blokes can have a patch of grass. See how they like queueing for a change....

Just as a point of information, the radar key is not to make sure only disabled people can use the toilets, it is to prevent vandalism. Radar say on their website that they encourage as many disabled toilets to stay unlocked as possible, as it does restrict access to those who don't have their own key. But when a toilet is being repeatedly vandalised it is better to keep it locked and so to have it available rather than being out of order due to vandalism.

That's why they lock them. Not to keep people out.

"So a cafe that that has only one toilet, that is a disabled access toilet expects it's other customers to go elsewhere - give me a break! And one of my local shops, which I regularly use that has 3 ladies toilets, and one accessible toilet just put a pushchair sign on the door for fun, not because they intended it to be used by parents finding it hard to get the pram in the regular toilets?"

Of course not, this about non-disabled people using a disabled toilet, when there are other facilities available to them.

I suspect that the 'accessible' toilet, is not a disabled toilet, just a larger toilet, where the company has not met the legal requirements. As i said "reasonable adjustments" can be interpreted as install a larger toilet, with handrails.

Let me ask you are question disabled rights organisations are campaigning for facilities intended for disabled people 'changing places' /whoaretheyfor.aspx here, there is no Law to say you cannot use these them, do you feel you are entitled to use them?

claw you have the patience of a saint sticking with this thread.

oops link didnt work, it reads;-

WHO ARE THEY FOR

Recent research found that over 230,000 severely disabled people, including those with profound and multiple learning disabilities, do not have access to public toilet facilities that meet their needs.

There are around 40,000 people with profound and multiple learning disabilities, the majority of whom need Changing Places toilets.

Many other people also have similar needs. For example, we know that in the UK the number of people who would benefit from a Changing Places toilet would include approximately:

* 130,000 older people
* 30,000 people with cerebral palsy
* 13,000 people with an acquired brain injury
* 8,500 people with Multiple Sclerosis
* 8,000 people with Spin Bifida
* 500 people with Motor Neurone Disease

This means that almost a quarter of a million people in the UK would benefit from increased numbers of Changing Places toilets.

Their families and carers also need Changing Places toilets so they can go out in the community with their son or daughter, other family members and friends.

And the number of people with complex disabilities is growing ? we are all living longer, meaning many more people are likely to need access to a Changing Places toilet in the future.

Do you feel you are entitled to use these toilets?

2shoes, it worries me that ds will have to tolerate views like this, as im sure we all do.

I think ive been accused of holding "saintly, holy than thou" views on this thread! patience of a saint it is