Not Really AIBU but amusing twist on old favourite: Disabled/Baby Change Loos

[QueenSconetta]

I know its quite a regular topic here, and I myself have moaned complained whined discussed parents using a disabled toilets with their children.

The other day I was a supermarket in a different town and was quite amused to see all the old ladies going into the baby change room cos it was big enough to fit their trollies in! I did wonder how they got on with using the mini toilet though

One can never win this one me thinks.

Ooh, got it! Maybe I should have squatted behind the buggy and pissed in a bottle!

And I firmly believe most wheelchair users would be happy for me to have done so. Just IMO obviously. People would have to be pretty mean and bitter to begrudge a mum of 2 babies using disabled loos in desperation.

WRt to the buggy- have you tried freecycle for a smnaller one?

I do completely get where you are coming from Starlight. I think alot of pubs now have locked disabled toilets to prevent just anyone going in.

Sanctimoanyarse- thank you for the suggestion. The shopping mall I'm talking about has just installed a really nice, big parenting room with spacious loos so problem solved for me. The incident I mentioned was a while back. Though that doesn't solve the problem of my shopping hating toddler.

NormalityBites - Well bravo to your dd. At age 2-3 most kids would not be able to do this. At our local shopping centre, my 4 year old ds still can't reach the taps and requires adult help (or older child) to use the taps.

I'm not being precious about this - my kids all (with the exception of the baby) go to the toilet on their own now in shopping centres, ds2 tends to either go with ds1 or dd, or I might leave dd (7) looking after the baby. But given that I'm not suggesting dads SHOULD use the disabled toilets, I'm simply pointing out a situation where they may feel unable to use the current arrangement of toilets, I think scorning me is uncalled for.

I'd feel pretty uncomfortable about dd going into the men's toilets tbh. And according to dh, the cubicle is usually filthy and he doesn't let the boys use it at all, so he wouldn't want dd sitting on it. And he certainly couldn't go into the ladies to change the baby, which is often where the changing station is, if not in the disabled. Ds1 and dd could neither of them be changed on a knee - they both had extreme toddler diarrhoea, which really does require changing facilities (table, and most importantly a sink), as it is not a simple job to change.

I reiterate; What we need is;
Ladies
Gents
Disabled
Family toilet/changing area.
Simple.

Please nobody else tell me I am saying dads should use the disabled. It is an example of a difficult situation that would be solved by the above scheme. As would the problem of taking buggies into cubicles.

SanctiMoanyArse
I said earlier, it is very different for a mum taking boys into the ladies, simply because EVERYBODY uses a cubicle, so there is no embarrassment as with a girl staring at a man doing a wee.

Even with those facilities Lily, it wouldnt change the sense of entitlement that most have on this thread and their "why shouldnt we use it" attitude.

That may be true Claw. And that is a sad indictment on the world today. But it might just make everyone's life a bit easier. Having kids doesn't have to be a case of 'who can cope with the hardest situations?' - there's nothing wrong with trying to make things better for everyone, and some places (like John Lewis) get it spot on. I don't get why people feel the need to criticise you for highlighting things you and your family have found hard, we're all parents.

Clearly, the needs of the neediest must be met. But that is not mutually exclusive with making things easier for EVERYONE. And I am sure if there were family rooms, then the majority of people who currently use a disabled toilet with a buggy, would use the family room instead. It would benefit the disabled as well as the parents.

I am puzzled. If I habitually did something that the vast majority of people would find remotely morally questionable, I would be sitting here quietly, nursing my grubby little secret, rather than proudly announcing it on a major parenting forum and becoming indignant when everyone didn't agree with me.
But this happens whenever certain topics come up - disabled parking spaces, buggy/wheelchair spaces on buses, disabled toilets - some people proudly announce that they do whatever fundamentally selfish act is being discussed and seem bemused that everyone else doesn't jump up and down congratulating them.
And in relation to some of the comments about "entitlement", "disabled card" "golden ticket", "jealous of NT children" - I am sitting here with my mouth open at the sheer, unrelenting vileness. Am I being unreasonable to think that these comments are scraping the bottom of the barrel of spite?

Lily, disabled people have enough battles to fight, without having to fight for facilities which they cant actually use, to stop people using the facilities they already have and have fought hard to get.

annec, YANBU at all,you speak sense.

Annec - Eureka, decent human beings do exist!

Fanjo - oh good. I have had a bizarre day at work where I questioned my sanity several times and in fact finished up ringing my professional body to ask "I'm not insane? Am I? Am I?" and then I read this thread and found myself thinking "Maybe the Law Society were wrong and I am in fact entirely insane".

Right. Quick. Close this thread. Before anyone else comes along and argues against Annec.

I am not suggesting disabled people fight the battles for family rooms. I am suggesting that instead of mums feeling they have to struggle with buggies or dads feeling they can't take their dds to the toilet, that a good solution would be as I outlined. I did not suggest it was up to disabled people to lobby for the facilities.

Most places with changing tables do put them in the disabled toilet because there is space. I have only ever been directed to the disabled loo for changing facilities. Not being contentious but wondered the opinion of this. There isn't space for family rooms, disabled toilets and 'normal' gents and ladies in most places I go.

You can actually take a baby out of a buggy you know. Who would have guessed? Every person here who says they use the disabled toilet only ever seems to need a 'quick wee', which it is perfectly possible to do while holding a baby under one arm if you are scared to leave it outside the cubicle. I've done it plenty of times (obv different if you have to deal with a tampon or something). Later on I had a changing bag with a detachable (and washable!) mat that I would put on the floor for dd to sit on until she was able to stand. She was only at my feet, close enough to be able to stop her touching the bin or anything like that. When she was toilet training we had a fold up potty that we took with us, no need to stand in a queue and wet herself at all. It honestly never occurred to me to use the disabled toilet, why would it?

Now I have ds who has ASD and my one-handed knicker-pulling-up skills come in very handy as I have to take him in the toilet with me and if I don't hang on to him he opens the door and legs it when I'm half dressed.

wcgrime, I very rarely reply to posts these days because I don't usually have the time. I work with elderly people, Adults with learning difficulties AND I have a disabled daughter myself. I do obviously have friends with disabled children and meet parents within my work and I find it extremely narrow minded and patronising the statement you have made about parents of disabled children 'turning on the guilt factor' HOW BLOODY DARE YOU! reading through these posts it seems to be some of the mothers of toddlers turning on the guilt trips. Believe it or not most parents of special needs kids do not turn on any guilt trips, nor believe it or not do we want any missed placed sympathy from other MNs I suggest you get to actually meet a few parents of SN kids before you make such generalised statements in future. I myself have heard mothers waiting in shopping queues telling there toddlers to wait if they ask for the toilet because they need to buy some clothes and dont want to leave their space in the line so obviously their kids can wait if the 'need' arises . I would be interested to know of ALL your experiences with parents of SN kids because you are obviously very knowledgeable or...are you just making assumptions??

"I always used the ladies when my learning disabled son was 4. We use the disabled toilet (if available) now he's 11."

That I can understand. Once he was older you stopped using the ladies because it was inappropitate.

Pagwatch

"I said that this is NOT about supervision ( or certainly was not with my DS)

It was about his disability making queueing impossible for him. And about his needing my help and being unable to go into the ladies once he was older."

I don't know why you think I am talking about you in particular but some people on similar threads have said it is because their learning disabled child needs supervision (which I think is fair enough).

So this is my question to those who have wheelchairs in their life every day:

Obviously once they get older it is inappropiate to take a child of the opposite sex into the same toilet as the carer so using the disabled loo is the only option for a learning disabled child that needs constant supervision. But if the child is young enough to be able to use the opposite sex toilet with their carer or is the same sex as their carer, then does that mean they shouldn't use the disabled loo, same as NT people shouldn't?

Hidetheelephant, as lots of parents with disabled children on this thread have already said, we only use the disabled toilet if we actually NEED to and avoid it if at all possible.

My ds is disabled, poos himself and often needs cleaning up, i would use the disabled toilet to do this. But he can wee in a 'normal' toilet, so that is where i take him for now. He is nearly 7.

If i need a wee, i use the 'normal' toilets, with him in the cubicle with me.

Lily, if you feel family rooms will help you with the difficulties you experience, then lobby for them. Sorry but it sounded like you were saying this was the solution for disabled people in a round about way.

My dc and other disabled people have the facilities they need or has Riven has already said the facilities we have are not always adequate for some disabled people. I will save my lobbying for that.

Tbh Claw, now that my oldest children are older (if that makes sense, they are 9,7,4,3months), it's not such a problem to me, as there is usually either the 9 or 7 year old to either stay with the baby, or to take the 4 year old to the toilet.

I was simply thinking that there MUST be a solution to the problem of people feeling they have to use the disabled toilet, and feeling unable to use the regular toilets, when in fact their needs are much less than for a disabled person. And whether or not they SHOULD use the disabled, the fact that this subject comes up ALL the time on here, and the strong and entrenched views that are exhibited on the thread , show that it IS an issue. And if it could be solved, perhaps by having family facilities, it would benefit everyone - the families by having easy accessible facilities, and the disabled by making the toilet absolutely and unequivocally dedicated to disabled use.

That's all. I didn't anywhere suggest that difficulties in use meant that dads should use disabled facilities (which I have been accused of), nor did I suggest that disabled people should have to lobby for family friendly facilities. I think it's something that MN could highlight though, with the weight of its reputation behind it, as it's a fairly simple thing that would make a real difference to parents. And think how nice it would be when this thread comes up again to be able to say "YABU - there is a family facility available, use it". Without any "I can't fit my buggy in" "I can't leave my child unattended" etc etc etc

Hidetheelephant I think you're not understanding thr issues of having a child with learning disabilities. My son cannot go into the gents alone as he needs supervision. He doesn't need supervision because he might be naughty he needs supervision to talk him through the steps and to stop him nosing under cubicles/climbing up to look out of windows. Noseyness rather than naughtiness.

He shouldn't really go in the ladies now he's 11 but despite years of teaching/practice he still finds waiting very difficult. Never mind that I don't think it's that great for him to be hitting his head/biting his finger over waiting for a toilet I also think itmust be pretty awful for someone inside the toilet to have their door kicked and hear screaming - especially if they cannot be quick.

So people nipping in unecessarily is a problem for us. Actually it's potentially a problem for others as well because I take him into he ladies rather than wait for the disabled toilet to become free.

If it's someone with no choice but to use the disabled toilet so be it. If not well .

Unisex/private family areas are fine for us too. I say private because although I'm happy to use any family area with ds1 I can imagine some mums of toddlers getting funny at finding ds1 in 'their' space.