Not Really AIBU but amusing twist on old favourite: Disabled/Baby Change Loos

[QueenSconetta]

I know its quite a regular topic here, and I myself have moaned complained whined discussed parents using a disabled toilets with their children.

The other day I was a supermarket in a different town and was quite amused to see all the old ladies going into the baby change room cos it was big enough to fit their trollies in! I did wonder how they got on with using the mini toilet though

One can never win this one me thinks.

This issue is bashed out fairly frequently on here. I think there are a few 'givens' that need stating.

Everyone has the right to go to the toilet in privacy and with dignity.

This to me would mean not having to go to the toilet with the door open - you may need to change a sanitary product or something like that, and I wouldn't expect any woman to have to do that with the door open. Equally, it would mean a disabled person having a toilet available that was suited to their needs.

Everyone has the right to keep their children safe

Some people would be happy to leave their child in a buggy outside the cubicle. Some people would never dream of doing this. It's a personal decision. Rather like whether you're happy to leave a child in the car whilst paying for petrol.

Facilities should be available to meet differing needs

This might be the needs of a disabled person, or might be the needs of a parent with a child who needs changing. They are not mutually exclusive.

There are other issues besides being able to take a buggy into the toilet. As has been mentioned numerous times, the changing area is frequently sited in the disabled toilet. But it may also be in the ladies, which of course renders them unusable for a dad. What if you are a dad out with a toilet trained girl who is too young to go into a toilet by herself? He can't really take her into the gents, nor can he let her go into the ladies on her own. What should he do?

So my solution is to have;
Regular Ladies and Gents toilets
Dedicated disabled toilet with facilities for older children with disabilities as well as wheelchairs (as riven has described).
Unisex family rooms with toilets, and a changing area.

John Lewis seem to manage this. Shame it isn't more common place.

My experience of telling people just hasn't been good notyet. Last time I told someone we were in a shop and ds1 tried to dash behind the till. I grabbed and restrained him apologized and explained. He hadn't made it behind the till - just tried. Ds1 is non verbal so making lots of shouty noises - really being very obvious. And the shopkeeper just became even stroppier.

I've found that repeatedly really. People who start being difficult just become more difficult when you try and explain. Face saving I guess.

I suspect that hoists in high use areas are serviced and/or checked more frequently than that needed for those used in domestic areas. I work in a hospital and ours is certainly checked quite frequently - as well as everyone using it being trained to do so.

I actually agree, things need to be labelled as "Accessible" rather than "Disabled" facilities. Because 9 times out of 10 they're not in use. Actually, a lot of places use RADAR keys to lock them which does cut down on abuse but is annoying (a friend of mine is a wheelchair user and is considering getting her own).

RW, you're just like the person at V festival who pointed at my other friend and shouted "SHE'S NOT DISABLED, WHY SHOULD SHE BE ALLOWED TO USE THEM" when my friend came out of a disabled loo.

My friend has a prosthetic leg and each step she takes currently causes her a lot of pain as she's waiting for surgery.

Hope you're proud. You don't know anything about that woman, who are you to judge?

ah yes this does come up.

ROFL at the thought of a little old dear trying to get off a pre-school type loo

I think they should be accessible tiolets myself as I have a bowel syndrome and single parent to DS to need to use these loos as 1) I can't wait, 2) I could be in there 20 minutes and not ok to leave a young child alone outside for that amount of time if normal cubicles are too small.
runawaywife That girl could have been me YABU to assume anything.

Galena Mon 06-Sep-10 13:00:52
"I have already said I would ask a disabled person if they'd like to go ahead of us. It's funny how high some people's horses are..."

So how would you know if the person was disabled?

If I was standing in a queue with DS you wouldn't know that both of us are disabled so how would you know to ask?

We both have genuine reasons why we would need to use the disabled toilets but you wouldn't know from looking at us.

Changing area being in the disabled toilet is a bad idea. But I question the need for baby changing areas in general, being someone who very very rarely used one. All they are is a table really, after all. There is very rarely a reason why you can't change the baby wherever you happen to be - most parents do this regularly when there is no facility.

I have a young daughter (4) and my partner takes her in the gents - why on earth wouldn't he? She is just starting to go off to the toilet by herself in cafes/pubs etc - she uses the ladies then of course and manages fine. I don't see a problem there.

I struggle to think of a single reason why I would ever even think to use a disabled toilet. I am not disabled - ergo I barely even notice the facility.

I am sorry that you seem to have encountered so many of the twats Saintly.

wcgrime it's not small shops that I would campaign for better toilets - it's large shopping centres/shops etc. If you look at the changing places website it's actually a lot less effort for the shops (during construction)to put them in and then maintain them than you'd think. For example when Derby was constructing the Westfield Centre I (and I'm sure many others as most places won't listen to one person) sent them letters about this and I believe that they now have an appropriate area.

the trouble with calling things accessible is that disabled people will then have to wait ages to use them. at least if they are called disabled they stand a chance of not have to wait ages.

Saintly - this isn't the sector I'm in, and I'm not expecting some sort of meadal or something, like I said, I love what I do, its fun and rewarding, and I know full well that I get as much if not more out of it than the disabled guys do. But I also know that I do a hell of alot more than most people out there.

To everyone that responded to my post, the point I'm trying to make is that you can't generalise about all disabled people. I'm sorry that some of your dc's are facing life with disabilities, but not all disabled people are disabled to the same level.

Some of you are taking what I said very personally and there is really no need. Just because you know about one type of disability inside out, does not make you an authority on all disabilities, in the smae way that I have alot of experience of people with MS and spinal injuries, but I'm nowhwere nere being an expert on everyone that has one of those things.

Whether you are prepared to admit it or not, some disabled people do play a 'disabled card' when they don't need to. I don't begrudge them that, but I'm not naieve enough to believe it doesn't happen when it's not really needed.

Do you honestly think I would mention my friend trying to blag free baggage allowance if he actually needed it? I'm not expecting him to pay for his wheelchair ffs! He doesn't need any more clothes than I do! I wouldn't expect him to pay for anything that he actually needs. I think it's outrageous when another friend does have to pay extra to take a mobile hoist on holiday.

Notyet I think it's because ds1 looks so - terrible word used in purpose- 'normal'. People just cannot understand how severely disabled he is. When the shopkeeper got the hump with him he was nice as pie to the adult with more obvious learning disabilities standing behind us. From the way the adult was waiting and talking I would guess he was functioning at a much higher level than ds1.

He's taking a risk with a blag as ime it's 50:50 as to whether he'll get away with it. That's his choice. I'm not sure how that's relevant to disability at all. Some people are good at blagging freebies some aren't. You may as well say 'some people are good at playing the mother/female/well dressed' whatever card. I suspect your friend would blag whether disabled or not.

Not taking it personally at all but think you have forgotten the huge number of disabled people who will never be able to play the disabled card.

I understand saintly it can be difficult. Unfortunately there are people who are ignorant as well as people who are twats about.

One gentleman who I support is 52 and looks "normal". We went to the pub and were sat talking. I went to the bar and a guy approached me and said "Is that your Dad or is he just a very lucky man?" I have also had people who do not know what my job is make comments to my relatives that they are worried as they've seen me out with 'dirty old men'.

A lady I support has quadriplegic cerebral palsy and severe learning disabilities and a lady on the bus was talking to us and referred to this lady as 'it'. She said "Aw, 'it' likes it on the bus"!!!

Sorry this is slightly off the topic of the thread but I can't stand disability discrimination and I really feel for you and your poor DS.

Despite these problems I do think that most people try to be helpful.

mmmperuna Sorry - unfortunate turn of phrase I used there. I went for brevity and obviously went too brief. What I meant was 'If someone who did not have a baby/young child was waiting for the combined baby change and disabled loo then I would ask them if they wanted to go before me.'

You're right though - if it were you and a young child (I don't know how old your son is) I probably wouldn't realise you were disabled. In that case, you have 2 choices - you either wait for me to finish changing DD and then go in, or you ask me if I would mind if you went in before me, and I would say 'Yes sure, on you go.' I'm not psychic. I take things on face value - hence, someone with a baby/small child waiting at a baby change/disabled loo I will assume is waiting for the baby change as am I and I will not assume they need to go before me.

Once again, here is a thread that brings out the 'just because they're disabled they think they're entitled' brigade. And once again the same amazing sn mums rally round in an attempt to explain what life is really like for sn families, and face insults and prejudice from other mumsnetters - as if they don't get enough of that in their everyday lives!

These mums are exhausted. Their school holidays haven't been filled with days out, activities in libraries, museums, etc, holidays, long playschemes. Often they're battling with interrupted nights that go on for YEARS and fighting for basic education rights. Some are regularly injured by their dc's, others are in constant pain due to lifting, carrying, etc.

And yet they return time and again to these threads in an attempt to make the world a better place for their dc's (and for everyone else's dc's and grand-dc's who might become disabled in the future...)

Sadly, some people will always see their 'normal' dc as the no.1 priority, whatever the circumstance. I know some sn mums get really despondant at threads like these but there's been some changes of opinion as the thread's developed, so responding IS worthwhile, even though you're knackered.

Thank you - for speaking out for all us sn lurker-mums out here.

Oh, and to the charity-worker who slagged off a couple of wheelchair-users she knows - surprise, surprise! Some disabled people are gits - just like some non-disabled people are gits...

Ah, cross posted with hundreds of you! Yes, actually, can now see that calling things accessible probably isn't the best plan... hmm obviously the next best thing then is to have more cubicles widened so that prams can be taken in?

You are right Saintly, he probably would blag disabled or not, and I'm fairly certain he would get away with it even without the disability. That's just the way he is, and you can't help but like him alot. It's relevant to the disability though because there is no doubt it helps him get away with it.

I do know that lots of people will be too disabled ever to play the disabled card, and that it is horrible for anyone to have a disability whether they can be fully independent or they need full time specialised care. I was just trying to make the point that the disabled label is not a 'one size fits all' badge iyswim. I maybe came across as if I was forgetting that group of disabled people because I don't work with them so don't have much experience in that area. We do an adventure sport so the majority of disabled people I know don't fit in that group. I'm sorry if I caused offence, that was not my intention at all.

saintlydamemrsturnip, only just come back - if you're in a queue with me in it I'll let you in front, I'm just sorry that other people aren't considerate of you.

Oh, and to the charity-worker who slagged off a couple of wheelchair-users she knows - surprise, surprise! Some disabled people are gits - just like some non-disabled people are gits...

Erm, that was my point! And I wasn't slagging off people that are my friends thankyou very much, just telling it like it is.

Oh yes I have met some lovely people notyet. I remember I'd just had to protect ds1 from a very unpleasant man in a queue and was feeling a bit battered when five minutes later a lady came up to me and asked whether ds1 was autistic and said she guessed because she 'recognised his noises' then she looked all sweetly at him. It made my day.

We have a couple of friendly local shopkeepers - one who always gives him a free apple (not freeloading I offered to pay until it became embarrassing and now give s Xmas gift instead) and another who always says what a dear he us.

The unpleasant ones just make it so exhausting. The lovely ones have occasionally made my cry with gratitude.

Ds1 is definitely a filter.

And omg at 'it'.

I did complain in virgin once after observing a staff member treating man with learning disabilities appallingly. Virgin unfortunately backed their staff member.

Sorry Curly, it wasn't clear they were your friends. They must feel very grateful that you give up so much of your time and money for them

Thanks tallwivglasses, less of the lurking please!

Getting braver by the day!