To tell the travellers...

[Starbuck999]

By my parents house to please fuck off?

Story is, my parents and their neighbours all clubbed together to buy a lovely piece of land that their terrace of houses over looks. None of them are rich and it was a large buy for them all but they all keep is beautifully and it is a lovely view for them all to enjoy, it's only a small patch of land, not what one could consider to be a field even. i think they have (had) plans to make it a play area for all the local children, or a sports field or something similar.

4 weeks ago, overnight, a few caravans appeared. Of course the residents went to speak to them to say it was private land (which they already knew as there are huge "private" signs all round it and they actually smashed down a large section of the fencing to drive their caravans in.) But the travellers refused to budge. They were very matter of fact and reasonably polite about the fact that they would not be moving and they knew the residents couldnt do anything to make them move right away. Lovely.

Now, whilst I fully appreciate anyone's right to live how they want, surely it should not be at the expense of others. It must be wonderful to live such a free life, moving from place to place if that is what you choose, but how can you not expect to pay? Caravans sites cost say £25 a night, they should be paying to stay in one, or buy their own land and live there.

The field is now horrendous. More and more caravans have been moved in, I'd say there's no about 20. There are huge piles of broken up crates, broken buggies, televisions etc and massive piles of general hosehold rubbish and food waste in black bags that have been split open by foxes I presume all round the edge of the land. It's starting to look like a landfill site!

I don't have the full details but basically the residents have been told nothing can be done to get rid of them right away, it will take time through the courts. Then they will be moved on. That's all that will happen. Now If I parked my car somewhere illegal it would be clamped, towed and I'd have a hefty fine - why doesn't the same apply?

AIBU?

Your poor parents, it must be heartbreaking , esp. about all the rubbish and damage. I do think it's unfair to tar all travellers with the same brush mind, it's like having bad neighbours - not all are bad! My aunt worked in a preschool type thing on a permanent traveller site in N.I and I helped out - I have never seen such clean and polite children, and 'houses'. I do feel sorry for them in some ways, everyone is always like "eer, dirty theiving pikeys" which just sets them apart really.

Expat, they are not in the OP's or anyone else's house, but on an empty area of land nearby.

Do you really think they are there for fun? Do you think they have lots of sites with water, sanitation, regular rubbish collections to choose from and just decided to pick on the OP for a laugh?

I don't think so. I think people live like that when they haven't got a choice and insufficient sites means they haven't got a choice.

"with rights come responsibilities" - well someone needs to give Travellers their rights

• to adequate housing which means sanitation, rubbish collected, etc. on adequate sites - same as the rest of us have in our homes-

and then I'd probably agree and complain if they were still annoying the OP. Unfortunately that is not the case.

On the education issue, although most Traveller kids do attend school here some don't, because there is a very high incidence of bullying and discrimination at school against Traveller children, so I suppose its not great for them. (Please don't tell me that is somehow their fault too.)

Bonnie, yes a lot of travellers, but by no means all, are HE. There is a high level of EWO concern about this and the provision is probably considered unsatisfactory more often than in the case of flatties.

There are also specific regulations wrt education and travellers within the LA to encourage the parents to engage with schools.

Education law allows for HE children to be taught completely outside of the NC, thank god, and protects the parents right to educate his child with regard and respect to the lifestyle he lives and is expected to live in as long as it doesn't detriment him. (Thats really badly explained but I hope you'll get what I mean!). Will try to find a link. :)

Kinders I blame the travellers I'm afraid, not the local authority for not "giving" them somewhere to live. They are not unfortunate individuals, they are choosen to break the law, ruin the land and therefore makes the residents lives a misery! Everyone has to live by our country's laws just because a group of people decide not to work and pay taxes gives them no right to trespass on private land, cause unknown amounts of damage and basically do as they please.

Of course no sanitation or running water must be horrendous for the pregnant women and children - but they are not being forced to live in caravans on wasteland. Isn't it thier choice of lifestyle that means they live this way? Is there anything stopping them getting jobs and renting a house like most of us do? Nope! It's not resorting to a settled lifestyle, it is realsiing that it is very difficult to live that way for free and not get residents hating you for making a mess and trespassing on their land. It is also realising that it is not right to raise a child on random fields with not washing or sanitation and no way or removing rubbish!

I may be naive here, but where do travellers get their money from? They obviously can't get benefits, so do they have jobs?

Agree with everything expat says. Agree also about local dogs. We've had dogs taken in our area and the owners have seen their dogs on the site but police have said there is nothing they can do.

I don't understand that comment about the dogs Valhalla? Sorry if I've missed something...

Cheers Rainbow, I was waiting for a flaming! ;)

Travellers often steal local dogs. In our area chloroform has been used on the larger dogs when they stray a little away from their owners on walks.

Kinders - they are not on "an empty piece of land nearby" seriously, how can you think what they are doing is ok? They are on privately owned and kept land, which the local residents (some elderly) all paid for so they have it as a place to look out over from their homes. It is now full of carvans, rubbish, dogs and children running around til all hours.

People cannot just say that they want to live a certain way and then expect either the council to provide for thieir every whim or to be allowed to break the law and live on other peoples property - which they have worked hard to pay for!!!

It's just not a feasable way to live unless you have the money or are preapred to work to fund it yourself. So the local council needs to provide more for them? Do they pay national insurance contributions? Do they pay council tax or imcome tax? Last time i checked I pay these so i get back from the state. if I refused to pay council tax for having my rubbish removed I'd be cut off.

I will contact the water supplier for th earea, to see if they have indeed tapped into the local supply, I never even thought of that. Maybe they will be able to cut them off and force them to move elsewhere. Also - where are they going to the toilet???

There are a lot of travellers in our area. Many landowners keep them off by building large embankments around plots of land so they physically can't bring vehicles onto it. That might be worth considering once they've gone to prevent them coming back - once they've found a new site the word tends to go out and more families come along.

Kinders - I work with rescue and am an independent rescuer too. Dog theft is bigger than it ever has been and rising fast. In the experience of people like myself and those on the lost dog website "DogLost", (considered the authority on finding lost/stolen dogs on the net), there are a hugely disproportionate number of dogs which are stolen and which turn out to have been taken by the travelling community.

We see a rise in thefts when horse fairs, fairs which include sales etc and so on come to town.

These dogs can be stolen for coursing purposes, breeding, to sell on for a profit or, and this is becoming notably more common, for the purposes of "finding" the dog and claiming a "reward". (And yes there ARE ways of discovering whether the dog has been genuinely found or not, 9 times out of 10).

So, on that score, I'll keep saying it til I'm blue in the face... regardless of where you live, how quiet it is, and irrespective of travellers, dogs are being stolen from gardens and outside shops and so on daily - owners, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR DOGS UNATTENDED.

No one gives us a thing, Kinders. We have to earn money to pay for it.

They shouldn't be any different just because tehy chose to drive around living out of a caravan.

No one forces them to do that.

Oh that's a good idea Profyaffle. We don't generally have travellers in the area (small village in Kent) so I guess they haven't had to think about all this before. It's just so upsetting for them all. Some people are just so selfish! Let's hope no more of them come along for a free place to stay.

In our area we've had dogs stolen whilst being walked.

The damage they cause it quite unbelievable. I'm sure there wouldn't be quite so much vitriol about them if they cleared up after themselves. There's a lady who travels alone who we see on the common near us every summer. She stays a few weeks and leaves the place exactly as she finds it, no mess, no destruction. I wonder why they don't all do the same?

If people want to trail around in a caravan with dodgy access to water and sanitation, I think that's up to them. Not my choice of lifestyle, but they aren't making me do it.

BUT breaking the law is a different matter. I can't go and park a caravan in my neighbour's garden - private land - and start flinging rubbish about. I'm all for liberalism and freedom, but not when it impacts on others in such a negative fashion.

I don't think it's up to the council to provide land, either. Camping places are provided...it's called paying your way in society.

x post rainbow.

So we're saying they steal dogs now. Lovely. And all Irish people are terrorists and English people are stuck up. (Disclaimer - I do not believe that btw!)

Its not reasonable to ask people to change their lifestyle like that Starbuck. It is like saying to you (if you required Council accomodation) 'we have no houses, so you'll have to live on a Traveller's site and move x times a year' - and if you say 'no way I'm not a Traveller, I need a house' you're told its you're own fault you're homeless because you should have taken the Traveller option. I think that would be unfair and I think its unfair to Travellers too.

They have limited choices or they would not be doing it. Starbuck - I'm sure Travellers would be the first people to tell you that its no way to live with no facilities - its their kids after all who are suffering!

I'm not sure about money. Can they not get benefits? Many work, but maybe less so the women. Surely they can get benefits?

I know I will probably persuade no-one here, but I didn't want to leave these things unsaid.

YANBU. This happens all over Ireland and it would make you weep. A lovely green is turned into a kip over night.

Kinders, I disagree. It's a lifestyle choice. I have to go to work. I dont expect to be given a house, water, sanitation etc. I have to pay for it myself. If I were unable to work I'd expect the state only then to step in till I was able to begin work again.

Err, yes, I said many do steal dogs. THat's because they do. Nothing controversial there.

Kinders Not ALL travellers steal dogs.

However, in the valid, long term and personal experience of those seriously involved in dog rescue the number of dogs stolen by travellers is disproportionate.

Highly so.

Thanks for the sanity, Kinders and others. I was beginning to despair here.

Do the rest of you posters think that no gypsies and travellers use the internet?

Unless they are putting into the system, I would hope they aren't allowed to take from it. Yes, live your free and independent (!) lifestyle - but the State won't fund you.

Whether they steal dogs or not, I don't know, but I do know about the massive amount of thefts and scams that go on when they park in our area. And how the incidents drop dramatically when they move on to another place.

I havent given it a thought. DOes it matter if they use the internet? Perhaps it will give htem a chance to appreciate some of the damage caused.

Whoa! So many posts! I must be really slow!

Starbuck I was responding to expats asertyion that it was somneone's house.

"If someone decides to camp out in your house, leave a mess in their wake and trash your place you shouldn't be angry with them, but the situation." Hence I replied:
"Expat, they are not in the OP's or anyone else's house, but on an empty area of land nearby

I am well aware that it is private land paid for by the residents, which is why I said