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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell the travellers...

380 replies

Starbuck999 · 30/08/2010 11:17

By my parents house to please fuck off?

Story is, my parents and their neighbours all clubbed together to buy a lovely piece of land that their terrace of houses over looks. None of them are rich and it was a large buy for them all but they all keep is beautifully and it is a lovely view for them all to enjoy, it's only a small patch of land, not what one could consider to be a field even. i think they have (had) plans to make it a play area for all the local children, or a sports field or something similar.

4 weeks ago, overnight, a few caravans appeared. Of course the residents went to speak to them to say it was private land (which they already knew as there are huge "private" signs all round it and they actually smashed down a large section of the fencing to drive their caravans in.) But the travellers refused to budge. They were very matter of fact and reasonably polite about the fact that they would not be moving and they knew the residents couldnt do anything to make them move right away. Lovely.

Now, whilst I fully appreciate anyone's right to live how they want, surely it should not be at the expense of others. It must be wonderful to live such a free life, moving from place to place if that is what you choose, but how can you not expect to pay? Caravans sites cost say £25 a night, they should be paying to stay in one, or buy their own land and live there.

The field is now horrendous. More and more caravans have been moved in, I'd say there's no about 20. There are huge piles of broken up crates, broken buggies, televisions etc and massive piles of general hosehold rubbish and food waste in black bags that have been split open by foxes I presume all round the edge of the land. It's starting to look like a landfill site!

I don't have the full details but basically the residents have been told nothing can be done to get rid of them right away, it will take time through the courts. Then they will be moved on. That's all that will happen. Now If I parked my car somewhere illegal it would be clamped, towed and I'd have a hefty fine - why doesn't the same apply?

AIBU?

OP posts:
tabouleh · 30/08/2010 11:46

Starbuck has the criminal damage (destroying the fencing) been reported to the police?

I would suggest that your parents and the other land owners consult a solicitor ASAP.

mayorquimby · 30/08/2010 11:46

"your name sounds familiar,is it from a tv programme or film?"

Yup, it's the JFK-esque mayor from the simpsons.

Original poster
Starbuck999 · 30/08/2010 11:46

Queenofflaminganything - Oh ok. We everyone is entitled to home educate their children, that's fair enough.

As for where they should live, I hate to be brutal but it's really not my problem. They just shouldn't be allowed or expect to live on private land without the landowners permission.

OP posts:
mayorquimby · 30/08/2010 11:47

or sorry, Ted Kennedy-esque.

expatinscotland · 30/08/2010 11:47

even if they bought their own land likelihood is they would be refused permission to live on it. happens time after time

If I buy a piece of land I have to pay to apply for permission on how to use it. It's no guarantee I'd be able to live on it myself.

So why should travellers be treated any differently from anybody else?

Original poster
Starbuck999 · 30/08/2010 11:48

Yeah booyhoo - didn't think of the council tax thing. Of course thye shouldn't get their rubbish cleared for free when they are trespassing!! The thing is there's nothting stopping them takingt he rubbish to the dump, they obvious don't want to pay to do that. Seems they want everything for free Sad

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 30/08/2010 11:56

Yes, they're entitled to stomp on rules everyone else has to obey, and pay to do so, trash peoples' land and even rob them of business, etc.

What is discriminatory IMO is that any subset of people should be allowed to flaunt the law just because they're them.

I hate paying rent and council tax.

So screw it! We'll just go buy a caravan and cruise around camping as we please, whever we want, and not pay a penny. We'll just say we're travellers.

booyhoo · 30/08/2010 11:57

i think that is the problem starbuck

people are very concerned now about respecting their rights which is good, they do have rights. but i think it has given some travellers the misguided idea that they are above the law and therefore don't really have to do anything that doesn't benefit them directly. taking rubbish to the dump would require effort on their part with no real benefit as they are happy enough to live amongst it knowing they can drive away whenever they like and the council will have to clear it in the end.

missbeehiving · 30/08/2010 11:58

I don't condone anti social behaviour, whether it's by Travellers or members of the settled community. Nobody should be above the law but just a couple of points;

Traditional stopping places for Travellers, such as commons are now not available because local residents don't want Travellers there.
Caravan site owners won't let them park up on their sites.
If they buy their own land they are unlikely to get permission because so many people object.
If the LA try to get permission for a site then usually many people object too and pp is refused.

On Council run sites Travellers pay rent and for waste disposal. Anti social behaviour can be controlled which is much better than an unauthorised encampment but until more of these sites exist the tensions between the settled community and the Travelling community will just increase.

SouthMum · 30/08/2010 12:03

YANBU

We had some near us and the mess they left was disgusting. Used nappies, dirty underwear and just crap all over.

Hope it gets sorted soon OP

expatinscotland · 30/08/2010 12:04

How would a caravan site owner even know who is a traveller v. a caravan-owning holiday maker?

Local commons and that - nowt to do with travellers that those aren't available. Most were sold years ago to commercial developers.

When people buy land they always have to get permission to house people on it. For obvious reasons. Developers routinely get apps refused due to trying to cram too many flats, and people, into a piece of land. Why should rules be different for travellers just because they're them?

You either have a set of rules of all or don't

Councils don't have enough land or space for anyone, that's why housing lists are so long. Don't see why one set of people should be placed about another in that.

stripeyknickersspottysocks · 30/08/2010 12:10

How are they getting water? Liklihood is that they've tapped into the mains and run off an illegal supply pipe/stand pipe.

Talk to the water board tomorrow. If you can get the water supply disconnected then they're more likely to move off quicker.

missbeehiving · 30/08/2010 12:12

Well, usually caravans owned by Travellers are towed by commercial vehicles, so it's easy enough to tell.

Registered commons can't be developed for sale.

I'm not suggesting that the planning rules should be different for Travellers.

I don't understand what you mean by the "rules" sentence?

Surely housing needs should be assessed for the whole community, not just one section of it? I absolutely agree that no one group should be treated preferentially in that respect.

booyhoo · 30/08/2010 12:17

housing need should be assessed for the whole community. which is why the council shouldn't have to provide traveller parks when they haven't even got enough social housing in existence.

TeamEdward · 30/08/2010 12:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KindersTristers · 30/08/2010 12:20

Ok. I live in NI, but here the problem is that Travellers do not have enough sites, meaning these people have nowhere to go! I'm assuming a similar problem in the rest of the UK. IMO their lifestyle is a travelling one and they should be given adequate sites, same as settled people should have adequate housing provision. They are not given sufficient sites - hence the problem described in the OP.

If that happened to me, I'd be unhappy too, but I'd be lobbying for adequate sites to fix the problem.

If there were enough sites, then these people could have proper water access, rubbish collected. It must be absolutely horrendous to have small children/ pregnant women and have to pitch up on a bit of waste ground with no proper washing facilities/ danger from rubbish not collected, generators for electricity, etc.

I do sympathise with the OP. Its unfortunate for the landowners, but blame insufficient provision, not the unfortunate individuals put in that situation.

And I will add (because I suspect that someone will come back and say 'why don't they get a house like everyone else')that nuclear family/bricks and mortar lifestyle is not what Travellers want. They live in extended family units and that is how they live - travelling. It would be equivalent to telling you to become a Traveller instead of settled - not acceptable as its not your way of life.

(Some Travellers will resort to a settled lifestyle, partly because conditions are just so awful on the sites provided (no proper facilities there either) or even worse at the 'side of road' sites as in the OP(with no facilities at all). Additionally, they are often faced with massive hostility based on their Traveller identity, even when 'settled'.)

I would hate to be a Traveller. I feel sorry that people aren't given adequate provision to water and sanitation in this day and age. I think its discriminatory.

YANBU to be annoyed, but direct your anger at the reason for the situation, not the Travellers, please.

expatinscotland · 30/08/2010 12:23

'YANBU to be annoyed, but direct your anger at the reason for the situation, not the Travellers, please.'

So don't be angry at people who know they are trespassing, tore down fences and are not cleaning up after themselves? Are they going to leave money for cleanup and to repair the damage to the property?

If someone decides to camp out in your house, leave a mess in their wake and trash your place you shouldn't be angry with them, but the situation.

WTF?

With rights come responsibilities.

Maybe people wouldn't have so much objection to travellers if they cleaned up after themselves and left things as they found them, or asked permission to camp on private land and offered money for it.

booyhoo · 30/08/2010 12:26

sorry kinders but it isn't the situation that is stopping these people bring their rubbish to teh dump or keep the area tidy. it would require a bit of effort on their part to dispose of their rubbish and look after the ground they are on but they dont. that is nothing to do with lack of adequate sites. i think OP has every right to direct her anger about it to the travellers themselves as they are the ones causing the mess.

ivykaty44 · 30/08/2010 12:26

my dd2 told me a couple of weeks ago that they had had a gipsy chidl in their class for about three weeks at school, dd was in y6. We had a local peice of land taken over and a fight by residents to have them removed as it was also private land.

dd had said that the teahcers wouldn't let her have an text or exersise books and dd2 had thought this odd, so told me and wanted to know why

booyhoo · 30/08/2010 12:28

why was she not allowed books?

BonniePrinceBilly · 30/08/2010 12:29

Home educated? With some of the lowest levels of literacy and numeracy in Europe? By parents who left school at 12? Hmm

frasersmummy · 30/08/2010 12:29

well said expat..

CupcakesHay · 30/08/2010 12:41

Your poor parents.

On the school front, a lot of travellers children do schooling via laptops/postal homework with a school that's in their "winter" quiet periods.

I watched a show on teachers TV about it - was fascinating.... (i'm training to become a teacher)

ben5 · 30/08/2010 12:43

starbuck
hope your parents are taking lots of photos of proof of what a mess they are leaving. can they print some of these off and send them to local MP's,police,newspapers,solictors etc and ask them to move them on. make the pictures bigger every week they are there asking these people to do something. it is your parents land( and there neighbours). how can the travellers justify staying there. bet the council would object if you built a house there with out planning permission and fine you!

Vallhala · 30/08/2010 12:50

YANBU. Tell them to fuck off and tell locals to keep their dogs in sight at all times and not to leave them in gardens unattended.