To tell the travellers...

[Starbuck999]

By my parents house to please fuck off?

Story is, my parents and their neighbours all clubbed together to buy a lovely piece of land that their terrace of houses over looks. None of them are rich and it was a large buy for them all but they all keep is beautifully and it is a lovely view for them all to enjoy, it's only a small patch of land, not what one could consider to be a field even. i think they have (had) plans to make it a play area for all the local children, or a sports field or something similar.

4 weeks ago, overnight, a few caravans appeared. Of course the residents went to speak to them to say it was private land (which they already knew as there are huge "private" signs all round it and they actually smashed down a large section of the fencing to drive their caravans in.) But the travellers refused to budge. They were very matter of fact and reasonably polite about the fact that they would not be moving and they knew the residents couldnt do anything to make them move right away. Lovely.

Now, whilst I fully appreciate anyone's right to live how they want, surely it should not be at the expense of others. It must be wonderful to live such a free life, moving from place to place if that is what you choose, but how can you not expect to pay? Caravans sites cost say £25 a night, they should be paying to stay in one, or buy their own land and live there.

The field is now horrendous. More and more caravans have been moved in, I'd say there's no about 20. There are huge piles of broken up crates, broken buggies, televisions etc and massive piles of general hosehold rubbish and food waste in black bags that have been split open by foxes I presume all round the edge of the land. It's starting to look like a landfill site!

I don't have the full details but basically the residents have been told nothing can be done to get rid of them right away, it will take time through the courts. Then they will be moved on. That's all that will happen. Now If I parked my car somewhere illegal it would be clamped, towed and I'd have a hefty fine - why doesn't the same apply?

AIBU?

Ah, neatly sidestepped. So, let me see if I understand this. You have very limited land personally - approximately a deckchair and a sleeping bag in size - and so not able to offer up your own land for use by travellers.
However, you are perfectly happy to suggest that anyone else who has more land than you to give it over to them, willingly and without complaint?

Oh Math. Oh dear.

'Expat, Travellers, Romany etc., are all distinct ethnic groups, distinct from each other and from the general population, whereas New Age Travellers are not (yet).'

Right, so it's okay for such persons to rock up on someone's land, camp out, damage it, leave it looking like a landfill site with no recompense at all because it's the government's fault for not providing stretches of land for people to camp out on (leaving aside the not enough playing fields for kids, homes for people in general, etc.), but if you're not such a person, you're say, a New Age traveller, it's different. You don't deserve the same rights.

We have both a privately-owned and a HA-run traveller site in our village.

But if they weren't there, I still wouldn't be happy about people, martians, the Pope, what have you camping on my land (HA! We live in a flat) without even the decency to ask permission, staying as long as they like, damaging my property, leaving heaps of rubbish and paying me nothing.

"you are perfectly happy to suggest that anyone else who has more land than you to give it over to them, willingly and without complaint?" Where exactly have I said that? One of us is tripping, and I'm pretty sure it's not me.

"Right, so it's okay for such persons to rock up on someone's land, camp out, damage it, leave it looking like a landfill site with no recompense at all because it's the government's fault for not providing stretches of land for people to camp out on (leaving aside the not enough playing fields for kids, homes for people in general, etc.), but if you're not such a person, you're say, a New Age traveller, it's different. You don't deserve the same rights." again -- I said nothing of the sort, nor did I imply anything of the sort.

You seemed to be saying in the post to which I referred that the Travellers' claim to separate ethnicity was unfounded, and I responded. As they are a separate ethnic group with a long history of a nomadic lifestyle, that the settled community is clearly having difficulty with, I believe the best approach for the long term would be less condemnation and more efforts at working collaboratively on acknowledging the sources of mutual antagonism and finding effective solutions to every party's issues here. If they just get moved on from post to pillar they will eventually be back in your backyard (but not mine; possibly my mum's though).

And again, everyone has the same nebulous right to trespass on someone else's property. You have the right, I do and so do the New Age Travellers. It is not their ethnicity that confers that right. It is the fact of being Her Majesty's subjects and living in Her Majesty's realm. Their ethnicity has bestowed upon them the idea that the nomadic life is the life for them. It has never given them any rights whatsoever; in fact, it has been a real negative where their rights as subjects or citizens and the application thereof are concerned.

You can occupy someone else's property for 28 consecutive days I think someone stated. The law recognises the notion of adverse possession (even in the US this is the case) which means in the case of Travellers squatting on someone else's property that if they've done it in the past they may arguably have a case for continuing to do it. It may seem like an alien concept to you it certainly is to me to do as the Travellers do, but it is how they have lived for centuries.

The more controversial side of this thread aside - does no one find it extraordinary that land and property costs SO much to buy and own and yet once you have achieved this any Tom, Dick or Harry can rock up and live on it and you as the owner have no rights?

Has the world gone completely mad?

This is the way the world has been for a long, long time (the common law world anyway).

Doesn't make it right though.

Maisie, MN HQ apologised for deleting my post,t hey got the wrong end of the proverbial stick when I said "these travellers" they though I meant in general rather than these actual specific group of travellers".

I also asked for anyone interested to PM me with the location of their own land which thye are happy for people to pee, shit, burn, rip down fences and dump rubbish all over so I can pop the address over to these group of travellers and they can get going asap. No PMs so far though....

I believe there's some nice green space out the back of No10 Downing Street, Starbuck - would that do?

OK so some Travellers (or 'travellers') invade private property and make a terrible mess ( and oh, they steal dogs and eat babies and have a rather misogynistic culture but that of course is a totally irrelevant issue) - but a lot of the screaming and squawking on this thread remind me of people who (being white) got mugged by a person who was not white and therefore decided that all non-white people are criminals, they can't help it, and they're all scum.

Wonder how many people here defending the rights of these people to camp and cause destruction on your parents land would want this in their back garden??

Runaway - they wouldn't want it, but are perfectly happy to express surprise and disbelief that anyone who does find themselves with travellers on their land should feel in any way aggrieved.

It's been interesting to note that the posters who are defending travellers 'rights' to land have not been quick to offer their own land or property, but have instead offered spurious arguements in favour of the right to trespass - or played the racist card.

Like I said before, my grandfather has suffered travellers trespassing on his land. The results aren't great.

But, where else are gypsies and travellers to go when there aren't enough legal sites???

Basic maths: lots of travellers, too few sites = some people forced to trespass.

It's been getting worse for the last couple of decades (yes, the last government was as guilty as the one before which abolished the requirement for adequate site provisions) and sadly no one takes any action because this groups of people aren't a 'vote winner'.

So, all the posters moaning about how awful travellers are and how they shouldn't under any circumstances ever trespass, just answer this question:

• where exactly should all the gypsies and travellers living in the UK sleep at night?

If you can answer that without resorting to NIMBYism, your posts might begin to make some sense.

• where exactly should all the gypsies and travellers living in the UK sleep at night?

Travellers should pay for their accommodation like anyone else does, go to a campsite, pay per night and clean up after themselves just like any of the settled community would (or some of the travelling community actually), or buy or rent land and go through the proper planning channels to get a permanent site. Presumably they have the means to pay either through paid work or benefits. I'm not anti traveller, but I would argue against special treatment.

'Travellers should pay for their accommodation like anyone else does, go to a campsite, pay per night and clean up after themselves just like any of the settled community would (or some of the travelling community actually)'

There aren't enough legal sites anymore. Do the maths.

'or buy or rent land and go through the proper planning channels to get a permanent site.'

Which Councillors in their right minds are going to vote to grant planning permission to a traveller's site, given the opinions of their largely NIMBY voting population?

There are plenty of campsites - they aren't specifically for travellers but they are free for anyone to use that can pay.

Proper planning channels give rights of appeal etc. Getting planning permission can be a headache whoever the applicant is. And I repeat - I don't see why any one group should get special treatment over another.

you also have to remember that travelling people will just spoil the land with not just all their general waste but excrement (we noticed this when they decided to move into a car park near where we live - it was stinking!). They just don't care - they leave mess behind and don't think of how dangerous it is for the environment and the locals living nearby.

YANBU Starbuck - good luck moving them on.

"Which Councillors in their right minds are going to vote to grant planning permission to a traveller's site, given the opinions of their largely NIMBY voting population?"

Well if the OP's experience is typical then I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting that in their back yard. I do feel a bit sorry for those travellers that are not like that though.

I have noticed Starbuck is on here doing a lot of whinging but not actually taking any advice.

I have given you advice on how to get the Travellers to move on. But you have not responded. Have your parents tried any of those things?

get 'the boys' round!! it's the only language they seem to understand!

Yes Fizzielove, all travellers are thick as fuck, they can only respond to violence and threats

The OP said that the Travellers had been polite.

I really wouldn't advise the OP to cause any problems to escalate.

Excuse me OneNameChange, I do apologise for "whinging" it is my thread after all and it was a thread to moan about the TRESPASASERS on my parents land and the stress and worry they are causing them and some elderly residents who they own the land with. What the heck makes you think I am not taking your advice? It is not my land, so there is no advice for me to take. My parents and their neighbours are dealing with it, they have sought legal advice and been in touch with the local council, the police and everyone else who would listen.

I said they have been polite with their words Onenamechange, but their actions are the total opposite. They have parked their caravans up and are as bold as brass about the fact the owners can't make them move and they have said so to the other owners who went to tell them to move! We have been advised under no circumstances to approach them, which in my experience is a very wise move. Nobody is going to go over there and try and reason with them about the fact they are breaking the law and ruining the land - they are well aware of what they are doing and the do not care!

Isawthreeships?!? Seriously! Too many travellers and not enough legal sites "provided" for them "forces" them to trespass? Nobody can be forced to trepass!! Using your logic then perhaps all the people round the county on council house waiting lists, being holed up in scummy flats and temporary hostels with their kids should just go and camp in someones back garden or find a house where the owners are on holiday and move right in!!! Don't be so silly. Nobody is forced to live in a caravan. If they don't want to pay to stay on campsites or pay farmers to use their land (which means leaving it in a decent state of course) and they don't want to buy their own land then perhaps living in a caravan isn't possible. Life choices shouldn't rely on being able to break the law and causing others misery just so you can live the way you want.

Hold a grouse shoot on the land

I don't see why the gvt should provide sites. Where should they sleep at night? - same place we should all sleep ie somewhere we've organised and paid for ourselves.

The gvt hasn't provided enough sites - the gvt didn't provide me with a home either, I made my own arrangements.

I don't accept that anybody is forced to trespass.

Starbuck999 - I thought you'd started the thread to have a discussion about possible courses of action that your parents could take. It seems you're not interested in that, you DID actually want to moan That's fine, I just thought it was meant to be constructive. So what were we all actually meant to say to you? 'YANBU, what a shame'.
I thought it was going to be taken further and we would have a discussion.

I meant in my post to Fizzielove that they'd been polite and not actually violent, not that it was polite of them to trespass and spoil the land, I should have made that clearer for you.

I didn't realise your parents had already started the process to get them to leave. If nobody is going to go over there to reason with them,. then how do you know they've said no to owners asking them to move? Oh wait, somebody obviously has gone to reason with them, even though you've apparently been advised not to. In my experience it is best to firstly ask them to move on, as it's important that private landowners can prove that they've asked them to move on themselves.

I hope it gets sorted soon. What have the council said, do you know?

Morris- lots of people live in accommodation that the government have provided and that they don't pay for.