To tell the travellers...

[Starbuck999]

By my parents house to please fuck off?

Story is, my parents and their neighbours all clubbed together to buy a lovely piece of land that their terrace of houses over looks. None of them are rich and it was a large buy for them all but they all keep is beautifully and it is a lovely view for them all to enjoy, it's only a small patch of land, not what one could consider to be a field even. i think they have (had) plans to make it a play area for all the local children, or a sports field or something similar.

4 weeks ago, overnight, a few caravans appeared. Of course the residents went to speak to them to say it was private land (which they already knew as there are huge "private" signs all round it and they actually smashed down a large section of the fencing to drive their caravans in.) But the travellers refused to budge. They were very matter of fact and reasonably polite about the fact that they would not be moving and they knew the residents couldnt do anything to make them move right away. Lovely.

Now, whilst I fully appreciate anyone's right to live how they want, surely it should not be at the expense of others. It must be wonderful to live such a free life, moving from place to place if that is what you choose, but how can you not expect to pay? Caravans sites cost say £25 a night, they should be paying to stay in one, or buy their own land and live there.

The field is now horrendous. More and more caravans have been moved in, I'd say there's no about 20. There are huge piles of broken up crates, broken buggies, televisions etc and massive piles of general hosehold rubbish and food waste in black bags that have been split open by foxes I presume all round the edge of the land. It's starting to look like a landfill site!

I don't have the full details but basically the residents have been told nothing can be done to get rid of them right away, it will take time through the courts. Then they will be moved on. That's all that will happen. Now If I parked my car somewhere illegal it would be clamped, towed and I'd have a hefty fine - why doesn't the same apply?

AIBU?

What would you suggest, Larkin? It seems to me that there are clear cut laws in the UK regarding trespassing, or fly tipping, or dropping litter, or planning - all of which seem to be ignored, or at least, almost impossible to apply. By the time the paperwork is in place to deal with them, they've moved off, leaving someone else to pick up the bill. I'm all for a contract, but there must be responsibilites as well as rights, and I'm not sure how they could be enforced.

The trouble is that it's far easier to say "Traveller's did it" than accept that all sections of society commit crime and engage in anti social behaviour. For example - Traveller encamped in a lay by near where I live. All the residents were up in arms when they left saying how they'd left a load of crap etc. When you actually looked at the stuff that was left, it was all fish waste than had been dumped by either a fisherman or a fish merchant but it was easier to blame the Traveller's for it.

People are angry about dumping etc, I can understand that but unless you address the fundamental problem which is the availability of sites then you simply move the problem of unauthorised encampments onto someone else.

Larkin - on Council owned sites, they do. And pay rent and Ctx.

I agree with you Maisie, and I don't know the answer.

That's partly why I wondered if the UK travelling community have a spokesperson. A public or private debate perhaps? Question Time?

There are all kinds of representational groups in the UK - for religions, ethnic minorities, gay, disabled... - who are constantly discussing ways to improve life for the people they represent.

Yes, expatinscotland - you've got the right one! Have you ever seen it after they've left? And this is provided by the Council, with a traveller liaison-type person to work with them and the police - don't be fooled into thinking a council run site with funded support for the travelling community will make the situation any better.

LarkinSky - the idea of more dialogue is a great one (although the problem is that there is not really a unified group of travellers, rather a complicated clan system, complicated by different ethnic groups). There are some well-known spoke-people though who perhaps should be listened to more readily. There are, however, parts of the country where Romany people have been active in local government.

If people met more travellers, then they'd be much less likely to assume the worst about them.

Gratton Puxon is the Traveller spokesman.

Miss - I can assure you, no other section of society was responsible for the arse of a tip that they left the site up the road here in. Of course there is anti-social behaviour in other parts of society, but that doesn't mean travellers can't be held to account when they commit crimes.

Has he been on Question Time? Or interviewed in the mainstream press? Or even attended Town Hall-type debates in the local communities his clan stay in?

DD has just woken up so I'll sign off now, but it's been an interesting debate.

OP, I hope your parents aren't bursting blood vessels, and that you get some resolution soon.

I just wanted to add my pennys worth.

Someone said earlier on that squatters don't have rights in Scotland so they don't have the same problem. Well actually, there is no such thing as squatting in Scotland. You cannot evict someone from a living space - this prevents landowners decideding they dont want farmer tennants any more and chucking them on the street. It comes from the same vein as Right to roam, it is not legal to prevent people passing through any piece of land.

That being said those people have to act within the same rules as the rest of us. And I sympathise 100% with OP, travellers can be darn right scary. I would not like to live near a group of drunk men with dogs, seemingly answerable to no-one.

I will say this tho. My great granny was a midwife in the days before NHS. She was called when a birth was difficult or baby or mum were in trouble. She said the the travel babys were the healthiest because they were kept cleanest and were surrounded by mother figures. Times have changed. Migrant work doesn't exist anymore and these people have been marginalised resulting in the situation we have now.

They make from running fairgrounds, buying and selling scrap and doing a lot of manual labour. While they do not, always pay council tax or NI, they also cost the economy a lot less.

Can I also point out we all thought gypsies stole babies not that long ago.

This is all a bit disjointed. I am not supporting their actions but I hate to see ignorance perpetrated - that doesn't solve anyone problems. Farmers often use dung heaps to prevent travellers returning but dont get me started on what farmers get for free ...

sorry i've not offered any help, just a rant. Brick up the entrance once they've and use stingers to burst tyres.

I feel really sorry for your parents and the other residents OP. I know exactly the kind of people you are talking about.

I am from Jenische background and have lived on sites all my life, I grew up in Germany but my family moved to England when I was about 12 and we lived with Romany people on their sites as our lives and customs are not too different. The sites that I have lived on have always been owned by us, we don't take what belongs to other people.

We distinguish ourselves from those whom we call 'tinkers' who often take what is not theirs, don't pay tax, can often be involved in crime such as selling drugs etc, and who cause violence and vandalism wherever they go. That is a huge stereotype but it is often true. And no, I doubt that they are home educated, since the majority that I have met cannot even read.

In contrast obviously I went to University, as did all my brothers and sisters and most of us live in houses now. We are a very conservative people and women cannot wear short skirts or revealing clothes (probably different to the kind of traveller you may be thinking of!), we believe in no sex before marriage as well. Traditionally we do home educate but I went to school in Germany, and then to a Gymnasium for secondary school, before I went to a Russell Group University in England

Not all travellers are a public menace! But some of them ruin our public image

Sorry I moved to England at 18, not 12.

The Daily Mail and Telegraph would probably want to run this story if they haven't already - it might help to put some pressure on the travellers to move on if the press gets involved

Envious of your lifestyle, OneNameChange. :)

I was just going to add that there is a huge difference, when someone spoke of "travellers" "running fairgrounds".

Although there are some newcomers to the world of Showmen these fairground owners usually have their roots in travelling fairs going back over centuries. Regulated by the Showman's Guild, fairground owners (as opposed to gaff lads and hangers-on) are generally and IME a far cry from the average traveller.

I count a number of Showmen amongst my friends and am very proud to do so.

That was a really interesting post, OneNameChange

But FattyArbuckel getting papers like the Daily Mail involved would only further this country's hatred of all travellers, which isn't a good thing. I mean it is such a racist paper.

Thanks Maisietmsc :)
Also another change to my post- I didn't 'obviously' go to university, I don't know how that could be obvious That made me sound like a twunt.

Oh don't bring the Daily Hate Mail into it. I hate that bunch of Nazis even more than our areas being trashed.

How is land acquired, out of interest? Do you have to go through the same planning process?

I don't live on a site now I just live in a house. I did like the lifestyle though and may rejoin. I am moving back to Germany soon and may go back to the site I lived on when I was younger, as my extended family are still there.
Many Romany gypsies that I have met in England live on their own private sites. Others I have met have moved around from council site to council site. The 'problem' with travellers is that they travel So it would be hard for the gov to build council owned sites, because you never know where travellers are going to go

That said travellers should not stay on land which they have no entitlement to. It causes ill feeling and mistrust of the travelling population.

Oh and private owned sites that I have stayed on have had to go through planning permission. I lived in one in the NW England (think Fleetwood/Blackpool area and it's around there) and the owners waited ages to get the full permission.

A few miles down the road and some tinkers bought some land, but they didn't actually get correct planning permission to build properties on it, but went ahead anyway. So they were halfway right, but not fully.

In germany there is more available for travellers. Probably because of the guilt of the murdering of the Romany/Jenische people in the Holocaust.

I used to live near a council run travellers site, they were terrible! It used to be so frustrating to see them get away with things because they moved around so much the police wouldn't bother to charge them with anything! A friend of mine had a knife held to her throat as a child by a 9 year old and the police did nothing because he was only 9 . I'm not saying they are all the same btw, just my experience of the ones near me. They are taught at a young age that they are above the law and it seems to be true. My car was stolen by a traveller who told my brother he would steal it, a neighbour witnessed him driving away in it but he wasn't even arrested, lack of evidence apparantly

I second that OneNameChange re the newspapers.

I liked your earlier post too. You sound lovely.

I was just thinking that the line

"often take what is not theirs, don't pay tax, can often be involved in crime such as selling drugs etc, and who cause violence and vandalism wherever they go"

could apply to any number of settled people everywhere and not just to Travellers.

I'm sure there are good and bad Travellers just like there are good and bad people everywhere. Once one or two Travellers do something wrong, people seem very quick to assume they are all like that though, which doesn't seem to happen with settled people.

(I know you're not doing that btw. )

"Oh don't bring the Daily Hate Mail into it. I hate that bunch of Nazis even more than our areas being trashed."

Gay40, you have a great turn of phrase!