To think my dd is NOT A LIKEABLE PERSON??

[proudnsad]

She's six. She's a feisty, intelligent, wild-haired tom boy with a laugh like Barbara Windsor.
But she is so horrible! I don't mean tantrumy and difficult (though she is those things too). She is rude, anti-social, unfriendly, has no empathy and is soooo selfish.
Her older bro is a sweet-natured, calm, kind kid. It upsets him how unkind and ungrateful she is to him.
She routinely wakes us all up in the morning, sometimes during the night, with huge
meltdowns along the lines of 'I'VE GOT A BOGEY UP MY NOSE' or 'I'VE SPILT MY WATER' or 'DB'S BREATHING'.
She refuses to do anything she's told. She rarely talks to other dc who come to chat, in fact she fixes them with this chilling look that would scare Beelzebub.
I could go on forever. As I started writing this I realised I didn't know where to start or stop.
I tried talking to her this morning after she woke us up in a massive strop because she couldn't get her dressing gown down. Cuddled her (that's one good thing,she loves affection and is very cuddly funnily enough) asked her about all the anger. But she's six, how the hell does she know how to explain it?
I try to praise and encourage and I tell her about much I love her.
But she's just not one of life's natural nice people and I don't want that to affect her experiences as she gets older iuswim?
Oh my god she's doing it again, gotta go!!!!

I don't thnk it's good that you are describing her as 'not a likeable person' - she's only 6. In your post you immediately set her against her brother. We all do it - we all compare our children (I've found myself thinking why does she do this, it's so annoying - the other two didn't) but if you make her feel that she ought to be more like x or less like she is, you will set up problems for her imo.

If you have these thoughts about her she will know. I talk as someone who has been a victim of highly critical parenting and it has been very damaging for me. Children have the right to be loved unconditionally by their parents. It may well be that by adjusting a few things here and there she'll be easier to get through to.

you never know which children other kids are going to like.

my sister: feisty, sulky, temperamental - lots of friends

me: biddable, easy, quiet - few friends

children don't pick friends on the basis of 'niceness'

although it always worth thinking if there is anything you can do to modify yur childs behaviour, their essential self is not going to change. My sister always complains about how strict my parents were with her....(and really they were strict with all of us, but it meant more with her.)

She sounds alot like my ds who is 7.

He still regularly has tantrums and just cannot seem to control his emtions at all. For example if he can't put a piece of lego together, then we get 'why does this happen to me, what is wrong with this world' , which yes is funny, but also slightly odd to an outsider.

He also has no tact, he says what he thinks. Last week my brother and his gf came over, and ds doesn't like her that much atm, and he said 'xxx why do you always have to come with uncle xxx'

He is having loads of friendship issues at school because although he really wants to play with them he can't seem to grasp that there has to be give and take in a game and it can't be all his way.

My mum thinks ds needs anger management, but I disagree. I think he could possibly do with some help of some description but I don't know what.

I am absolutely not saying she is on the spectrum, BUT just FYI don't think that because your nephew behaves in a certain way this does not mean that his is the only way of being autistic. Everyone on the spectrum is different, and that you can easily be autistic and clever, autistic and affectionate, autistic and cuddly, autistic and want to have friends, autistic and kind etc - but it is pretty much impossible to be autistic and the life and soul of the party and Mrs Popular, the queen of the scene. It is very common to blank visitors and even friends, to be appear angry, rude, unempathetic, selfish, anti-social, have massive mood swings, be unable to cope with frustion and to want to follow their own path regardless of direction and punishment etc etc. Of course, many of those things can appear in all kids, especially strong-willed, energetic, stubborn kids but they are also supercommon with kids with ASDs. I think girls with older brothers are noticeably livelier and 'naughtier' than oldest girls/only girls and girls with sisters. They are definitely wilder IME.

I am going to annoy you again by mentioning aspergers....
I work in a - very small - school and every now and again a child comes along who is not "socially withdrawn" as may be more typical of some autistic children, but who shows a lack of awareness of other peoples feelings that can often seem like selfishness and unkind behaviour. It sometimes takes even experienced teachers a little while to work out that these children may be somewhere on the autistic spectrum. I am not an expert myself (Iam a school administrator not a teacher) but I just wonder if it is something worth looking into in more detail. Good luck, anyway!

Oh, I meant to add that I think Ds is fab and like and love him to bits. Other people though are starting to get fed up I think.

MrsMorgan, why not have a chat with the SENCO at your child's school? Kids with Aspergers are not unloveable!

I know people keep pressing you on the autism issue, and obviously you are the one who really knows your child best. But the spectrum is very wide and she does sound quite similar to my DS2 who is also 6. He was assessed last year and scored highly in some areas and not in others. He's being reassessed in 12 months. I'm just trying to say bear it in mind really.

I know it can be really hard dealing with feisty children, especially when they have other siblings. My only advice is pick your battles - some things are not worth getting het up about. Focus on the positives to reinforce good behaviour. And try to anticipate what will trigger a meltdown (although I know it can be hard to anticipate troublesome bogies in the middle of the night )

Coldcomfort - he is under the senco. First he had an IEP, but they decided he needed an IBP instead. They have said they think there is nothing wrong with him though and that he just needs more monitoring in class.

He is having a male teacher this year which I am hoping might help things, but if not I am going to ask if he can be assessed in some way.

Sorry for hyjack proundnsad.

proudnsad your DD sounds very well equipped for the often tough world she will face as a girl and woman. she knows what she wants and is able to communicate her needs to an alarming extent. good for her!
when i read your op i wondered if that was how my mother would have described me at that age :( i was confident and strong willed, and she found to to be just too much for her. she did her best to knock my 'over confidence' at every opportunity, and i had serious self esteem issues as a teen and young adult. i grew up knowing that i wasn't especially liked by my mother, who adored my lovely easy going brother. the less liked i felt the louder i felt i needed to be to be heard and understood. don't get me wrong, we're not as well equipped for the children we have as we start out expecting to be; and i don't bear a grudge towards my mother. i also feel nervous at the prospect of ever having a child like myself!
your DD has the potential to be a courageous and amazing woman :)

proudnsad no advice only empathy I'm afraid my beautiful dd nearly 4 is a lot like you describe although she can have empathy when it suits! However she's a fiery, feisty, stubborn firebrand of a child and has the untamed wild hair to match!

I have only ever known stubborness and determination like it once before, in myself! This is why we clash esp at the mo. Everyday before 9am we've usually had 3 or more tantrums, today it was because a plaster on her knee had worked it's way off a bit, oh my God the drama and hysteria was off the scale! I love her to bits but at the mo I'm really struggling with her, the older she gets the more strong willed she gets.

Her little brother although only 11m is already so much more easy going. sigh.

Sounds exactly like me as a kid. My parents say I was "challenging". My DS is now 10 weeks and is developing exactly the way I did so the GP say I have fun to come .

Seriously, have you thought about seeing a counsellor with her. With hindsight it would have been fantastic for me and my parents to just have help communicating. Don't want to go into details but it could have helped me a great deal.

Thanks all. Will post later. It has never once occurred to me that she cold be on autism spectrum. It's v interesting. I still don't think she is but I am opening my mind. I feel more connection to posters who see their feisty, challenging younger selves or dc in my daughter.

I'm another one who feels you could be describing me as a child- always seen as far more difficult to love than my sister, or so it seemed to me!
Who are you woried about your daugher being unlikeable to- others in the outside world or you yourself? The most important thing IMO us to make sure she likes herself.
Also, and this is a very silly question, so feel free to ignore- is it astrological????

Ps Electra, I hear ya but if you have time to read my other posts on this thread you'll see a bigger picture. Thanks for your thoughts though.

Agreeability is one of the five domains of personality that psychologists measure. You'd think a high score would be a good thing - and it is in lots of ways. BUT a high score in agreeability has a negative correlation with success in business (as in climbing the career ladder). Worth bearing in mind...

Proudnsad - I really admire your honesty, this was sooo unacceptable 22 years ago when I had my girl twins (2 years to the day after DS birth). Genetically identical, they are as different as chalk & cheese in personality & behaviour. The firstborn is a classic middle child - she is strong, coper, doesn't expect to be the centre of attention & ploughs her own furrow in life. This is probably because DS appeared to be the runaway fave of mine in childhood because he is 'good' i.e was an easy baby & child, stoic when he went through leukaemia & bone marrow transplant at 3 then type 1 diabetes at 15 & in personality is all mine - we can have all night chats on the same intellectual level and a great laugh now, I adore him as a friend as much as my son. The younger twin has always played the classic role of the baby of the family, sweet speech features, ditsy behaviour, very loving & caring of the other two etc. Thus she has always seemed like the favoured twin by me as she knows exactly how to play the baby card. Right from the start the middle one wound me up something rotten. As soon as she was old enough to realise this it became even worse, I just didn't like her personality. She has many features of DH, whom I love dearly, and has always been Daddy's girl - not least because there were times when she was about 3 when her non-stop whingeing drove me to summon DH home from work & demand that she was removed from my vicinity immeidately ! Over the growing-up years when DH often worked away from home she was the coper when it was all too much for me, is very practical & dispassionate, which the other two are not. Now grown, she is stunningly beautiful (does modelling), breezed through her Social Work degree and is doing brilliantly in a tough London borough in her first job. She laughs about the whole situation (we are a close little family really) and I make no bones about the fact that, much as I always loved them & never let them down, she is the one I have found hardest to understand. Luckily she knows that I admire her qualities and appreciate her support now, I think her childhood and position in the family have ultimately equipped her with a robustness for the challenges of today's world, which is not quite so evident in the other two. I believe honesty is the best policy and can't stand people who tell you that it will screw them up for life if you express dissent from their behaviour / attitude / personality which you don't like. Good luck and rest assured that she will appreciate your love and grow up just fine.

Proudnsad - I really admire your honesty, this was sooo unacceptable 22 years ago when I had my girl twins (2 years to the day after DS birth). Genetically identical, they are as different as chalk & cheese in personality & behaviour. The firstborn is a classic middle child - she is strong, coper, doesn't expect to be the centre of attention & ploughs her own furrow in life. This is probably because DS appeared to be the runaway fave of mine in childhood because he is 'good' i.e was an easy baby & child, stoic when he went through leukaemia & bone marrow transplant at 3 then type 1 diabetes at 15 & in personality is all mine - we can have all night chats on the same intellectual level and a great laugh now, I adore him as a friend as much as my son. The younger twin has always played the classic role of the baby of the family, sweet speech features, ditsy behaviour, very loving & caring of the other two etc. Thus she has always seemed like the favoured twin by me as she knows exactly how to play the baby card. Right from the start the middle one wound me up something rotten. As soon as she was old enough to realise this it became even worse, I just didn't like her personality. She has many features of DH, whom I love dearly, and has always been Daddy's girl - not least because there were times when she was about 3 when her non-stop whingeing drove me to summon DH home from work & demand that she was removed from my vicinity immeidately ! Over the growing-up years when DH often worked away from home she was the coper when it was all too much for me, is very practical & dispassionate, which the other two are not. Now grown, she is stunningly beautiful (does modelling), breezed through her Social Work degree and is doing brilliantly in a tough London borough in her first job. She laughs about the whole situation (we are a close little family really) and I make no bones about the fact that, much as I always loved them & never let them down, she is the one I have found hardest to understand. Luckily she knows that I admire her qualities and appreciate her support now, I think her childhood and position in the family have ultimately equipped her with a robustness for the challenges of today's world, which is not quite so evident in the other two. I believe honesty is the best policy and can't stand people who tell you that it will screw them up for life if you express dissent from their behaviour / attitude / personality which you don't like. Good luck and rest assured that she will appreciate your love and grow up just fine.

sorry for double post - too much rose!

oh proudsnad I feel for you in the fact Im supporting a friend through this at the mo. Won't go into too much detail as I don't want to break her confidence but her dd2 is very similar to yours. Shes funny and can be so kind but she seems to enjoy the buzz from annoying others IYSWIM, and she has definatly learnt that she who shouts loudest....

Does your dd have the attitude she can do what she likes and play anything she likes of others but is very protective of her things??

FWIW despite how difficult friends dd2 is her mum loves her to bits and so do I as you do your dd, and my friend says she was the same as a child and she has done well for herself. (altho has quite low confidence now [sad[)

Dittany - yes there might have been too much expectation.
But my 'spitefulness' etc post was a response to a query as to whether she may be autistic. And also I am being brutally honest about the way she is. I love the bones of her though.
I am quite squiffy right now so can't elaborate without typos and wibbling so g'night for now!

Ok so dd has been fabulously behaved since yesterday arvo! Wtf's that about?
Me looking at her in a different way since reading all your posts?
Finally getting through to her?
Pandering to her?!!

I orginally posted the morning after she'd gone ape shit when I'd asked her to tidy her bedroom. I mean really ape shit, refusing to do it, shouting, crying, throwing things round her room.

I said right you can either do it or go straight to bed without books etc.

She said 'Fine I'm going to bed, I HATE YOU etc'. So she did. (Not sure if I won that one or not?!)

Her anger and bad behaviour spilled over into the next day.. But yesterday pm she was lovely, she agreed to finally tidy her room if she could listen to her favourite pop group on my ipod (remember Same Difference, that creepy brother and sister duo from X Factor many moons ago?!!).

This morning, she was considerate when she woke up and has been fab fun (yes I know it's only 9am!).

Just to respond to posters who say I sound harsh in my descriptions of her. I know I do , it's tough and I try very hard to support, encourage, understand and praise her.

And just to reiterate, my concern is she's not likeable to others some of the time (a lot of the time) but I like her very much. She just drives me looney.