To get annoyed with the general intolerance towards children?

[BobMarley]

Now I'm all for children being tought how to behave especially in public, but I recently had my 5-year old snapped at by an old lady because she ran passed her. On the promenade by the beach. Opposite the children's zone. The old lady was sitting outside her beach hut and my daughter ran passed.

Another time someone on Facebook complained about a child incessantly talking on a train. She thought it was unacceptable in public and the parent should have kept the child quiet because it was annoying everyone. Needless to say this was someone who did not have children. When I commented that she might think differently when she has children of her own I got flamed.

AIBU to think people are just intolerant and children aren't allowed to be children and are expected to be mini-adults?

I live in Spain where children are acceptable in restaurants and there is never any problem with taking them out to places BUT i have to say that i am only happy to do so because I have taught my dd manners.

Restaurants are not playgrounds so if you know your child will be bored and wont want anythinng to eat then take some SMALL toys with you to keep them amused and dont let them run around and annoy other people.

When we visit the uk it is awful that you cannot go into some bars because of the licensing laws, I don't want to get rat arsed around my child but I would like to have a pub lunch without having to sit in an awful garden because i have a child with me.

I agree this isn't a parenting issue - we shouldn't tolerate bad behaviour in anyone, adults or children alike.

What is endlessly frustrating is the attitude that children, by their very existance, are a PITA and that as a society it is totally acceptable to be down right rude to them.

I fly frequently alone with my DC (now 4 and 5) shock horror we sometimes fly business. The attitude we get from people before the children even sit down is shocking: hurumphing, groaning, comments along the lines of "oh for gods sake"/"shouldn't be allowed". I am sure those people wouldn't be so overtly hostile to any adult.

On the flipside on our last flight: 8hrs with me suffering awful morning sickness so not easy for me a business man complimented me on how beautufully behaved my children were. It made my day

I'd forgotten you couldn't take children into a pub in the UK. On an aside, I wonder if that has anything to do with the cultural attitude to drinking? Perhaps it makes it makes bars seem more mysterious and attractive to children.

Concerning the OP, on our frequent trips to the UK I haven't encountered any intolerance towards children such as mentioned on the thread.

I don't know where you get the idea that you can't take children into a pub! the law is clear about children and alcohol in pubs, but there are no other restrictions, see here

In Ireland children are not allowed in pubs after (I think) 8pm - this seems eminently reasonable to me, given that I assume that it's to prevent situations where the parents get pissed and leave their children to roam around - leaving aside the issue of whether it's appropriate for children to see this kind of behaviour (my view is that it is fine for them to see moderate drinking with a meal, but not more than this) I don't think a pub in the evening is really that suitable.

DP, DD and I went to many pubs in England when we were on holidays (admittedly usually before 7pm) and were always welcomed and treated very well (high chairs, children's portions etc)

I do find the UK more childfriendly compared to other countries in terms of acvities provided, soft play centres etc. Sometimes when away we have struggled to find activities solely provided for children,its more that children are incorporated (for want ofa better word?) in to adult life in other countries.

I think it may be regionalised too.I live in the midlands and there are hundreds of "child" pubs,rubbish food but play barns with softplay/slides/childrens meals etc. My DD loves these but in some ways.I guess it isnt teaching "manners"?? I say let them be children.

And "not allowing tantrums",please tell me how?!!! I dont get a lot of say in my 2 year olds We would however leave.

Drivingmisscrazy, thanks for that info.

I read on this thread a couple of times that you can't take children into pubs in the UK and I assumed they were right because that's how it was when I was a child.

But, LetThereBeRock, your whole post is taking the child-as-actual-person out of the equation. You're talking about how dare parents expect you to entertain their child, etc. The OP, and arses, and several of us, are saying that it's not about what the parent expects of you. It's about an interaction with another human being, who happens to be young, and short.

If a stranger strikes up a conversation with me on a train I might join in or be irritated and tell them I don't feel like talking, depending on my mood and how they approach it. It's no different if that stranger is a toddler, except that my brush-off technique might be different.

The issue is people who resent children being in public spaces by dint of their status as children. Look at curryfreak's posts - she keeps saying 'Why should I be interested in your children'? you are saying "Generally I like children". As if children as some amorphous mass of humanity to be dismissed or welcomed.

if my child smiles at you (the general you, now), smile back or don't. But if you don't, then it's just as rude as if I smiled at you and you blanked me. You can't dress it up as "well I don't like children" and expect to sound less bigoted than if you'd said "well I just don't like Australians". My child is as deserving of courtesy and human interaction as I am.

I must admit I've not had much experience of this. Usually I haven't felt my DC to be unwelcome. I do ask them to keep it down in public and think of other people.

But I do dislike the way that children are ghettoised - we are encouraged to take them to hell-holes like Brewsters if we want to feed them, or pub restaurants with gardens. Kids are hugely catered for but only because the mainstream doesn't want them. I think that well-behaved children should be welcome anywhere. if that is where most children get experience of eating out it's harder for them to learn to behave in adult settings.

i was talking specifically about bands in pubs and how my young tween is not allowed in any of the venues in town with me after 8pm. The signs always claim ''licensing laws''
the bands are always on at 9pm.
He would not be drinking and would be supervised. he just wants to see bands playing. As would many older children. I can't see this is a problem. There's a big difference between an engaged, young adult (and potential future customer) and a couple of toddlers happily running riot while their parents get pissed in the corner. But in many people's minds, the two scenarios are inseparable.

Come to think of it, in my town, we used to take the children to a couple of pubs in the summer because you could sit outside on a sunny sunday afternoon, whereas the cafes were shut on sundays or in the early evenings and there was no outside space. This used to draw comments from general child-haters....

I did say I'd smile. I said I'm happy to smile at anyone who smiles at me.

What I said is that I generally don't want to become involved in a detailed conversation or be expected to entertain them in restaurants while I'm trying to enjoy my meal/talk to my friend.

'I'm happy to smile at a baby/toddler/child but I don't really want to have a conversation with them while on public transport,and I've met parents who expected me to have a long and involved conversation with their child when really I'd rather not.'

See...

pamelat think your post "And "not allowing tantrums",please tell me how?!!! I dont get a lot of say in my 2 year olds blushWe would however leave. " was aimed at my last comment.

What it actually says is DD is not allowed to tantrum in restaurants. We have explained to her that if she tantrums in restaurants, she will be removed. We do this consistently so that now she seems to get that if she tantrums, she won't get to stay and eat lovely food and so is getting pretty reliable.
I can't stop her tantrumming and do recognise it is part of a 2 yr old growing up but how we deal with it and teach her consequences is very much in my control.
We do spot the patterns/signs though and do a huge amount of distraction technique!

Last weekend we ate our tea in Yo Sushi and she was a dream and had a go at everything, even loving DP's octopus balls (ya gotta laugh at that!! )

I don;t think ther is a general intolerance of children

I think there is - an underlying current still of the children should be seen and look Boden cute but not heard mentality. We've just come back from a French village. Hadn't been overseas for a couple of years and we were really struck with the difference - children playing out on the streets til 11pm with no complaints, at village singing and dancing events in the square toddlers stayed up with parents and grandparents. You could hear children all day, crying and playing, and it was completely accepted. Parents weren't under pressure to keep them quiet so there wasn't much parental shouting either. All seems very idyllic but was very noticeable. We live in a village in the UK and at least 70% of residents over 50 make it clear they dislike any noise from children. We've had lots of sarky comments about 'we moved here for the quiet' etc. My children love playing outside and aren't as quiet as mice - but then they are not racing motorbikes up and down and swearing violently either, which I might understand...

just one quick comment,meant to be doing the washing

I really dont think that children being "allowed" or made to stay up late is a good thing.

We kept DD (2.5) up late for the first time at the weekend, at a family party until 10pm. She was very good and also slept until 945am the following day but we wouldnt make a habit of it. I think its good to get adult time and I think its good to have a sensible bedtime to ensure 12 hours or enough sleep. On a nursery day for example, she has to be up by 7am so bed 630/7pm.

This thread was just mentioned on Wright Stuff!!!

IME children in France do go to bed later than children in the UK and the younger ones nap until a later age to compensate. They rarely go to bed before 8pm.

But staying up until 10 or 11 at night is for special occasions/summer holidays/stays with grandparents who don't have to get their children up and out of the house to be at work on time.

I have never heard of a child free wedding in France and everyone was very surprised when I went to one in the UK. Weddings go on until the early hours of the morning, the children come along and there are usually some mattresses in a corner where they crash until their parents have finished dancing. Weddings are about family and if you get married in church, the couple commit to founding a family, so it would be quite hypocritcal then to not invite children to the celebrations.

I live in London but I am from Spain. I have been here for over 16 years and I am full of admiration for this city and this country. But, it is easier to go out with children in Spain. Yes, there are less facilities (UK has the best children facilities of any place I have ever been to, great parks, playgrounds, etc). But the attitude is one of segregation, children in certain places, at certain times and best if they don't make too much noise. My husband (who is from London), bless him, has the worst time when we go to restaurants in London, because he worries about inconveniencing people with our children. While I too worry and would not dream of letting them getting away with that, with one of them being only 2yo there are bound to be spillages, a raised voice here and there and a couple or runs for the kitchen. Our 4yo was like that but she has learnt by repeating the experience and she is good now. In Spain, this wouldn't be a problem, because they wouldn't be the only ones creating a little noise and because no one cares as much if they do, they are just being children, so it is more relaxing for parents. You just need to speak louder!!

I don't think that children in the continent are better or worse behaved, or parents are better or worse. I do think the difference lies in what is considered an intrusion into our personal space and what isn't. British people have generally (this is by observing people in the tube, cafes, etc) a more heightened sense of personal space that southern europeans. And don't seem, I am generalising, I know, like noise, or unwanted physical presence within that space. The personal space bubble in Spain is smaller, people don't mind noise or other people's presence being closer (you only need to look at distance between queuing people in different countries). I am not saying one is better than the other, only that this cascades down to children and their impact in that personal space. And because of that I think the UK is not very child friendly because it doesn't account for the fact that children don't know where someone's space starts and need to learn by trial and error, like everything else.

I totally agree with you amalur, you've put that so well. I'm portuguese and see that too. Mind you i've always blamed it on the lack of sunshine in this country - when the sun is out everyone is so much happier and a lot more tolerent of children. I recon if we had the sun that spain or portugal have then we wouldn't be having this debate hee hee!

amular I agree, you have said what I wanted to say but more concisely

I guess its just different.

I do think I stress too much about the effect of my toddler on other people, so avoid posh restaurants etc, where I may intrude on other peoples special time.

I guess the British "restraint" is not comfortable with the unpredictable nature of any young child,especially our own?

In softplay etc,it doesnt matter and they can run wild and then sleep really well afterwards

amalur you have put that so well, I totally agree with you.

sloanypoany shame I missed the wright stuff I would have liked to have seen that and see what the general consensus was of that discussion. And glad to have helped their researchers with coming up with a topic for their show...

We often take uour children into pubs. I generally ask if it's ok first. I then find - that if I've asked the staff are then incredibly friendly. Any possible suspicions are diluted.

My dds (6 and 3) are well behaved but I like to ensure that all the other occupants of the pub feel comfortable; after all they are customers who will probably be spending a lot more than us. (children don't drink expensive drinks in pubs!)

My dd2 first went to a pub when she was 15 hours old! She behaved immaculately (slept) but I needed a good meal after labour.

Brilliant synopsis amalur - I am looking forward to eating out in restaurants with my two in just over a week's time when holidaying in Italy...

We are in London and tend to eat out in Chinese restaurants where the atmosphere is generally more, er, robust (for want of a better word for noisy ). We generally find that the kids are assumed to be part of the dining public. And they certainly are not the only ones making a noise. The pubs we go to are also welcoming. Have yet to be tutted at (touch wood).

Totally second the experience of a Chinese restaurant. we go to a massive one which can be 50% chinese families, 50% other backgrounds (is that the right phrase?). They are so so so child friendly and don't bat an eyelid at anything - very welcoming and alwasys full of children, which is a delight. Plus we get to introduce DD to the delights of Chinese cuisine

I enjoy hearing children talking and playing. There was a group of 18 kids (a holiday club I think) recently on a train I was on - and I loved seeing them chatting and playing with their exciting new things, toydinosaurs , plastic swords etc from Manchester Museum shop! Young children have to learn about behaviour norms and what is considered acceptable, but it takes time, so it's not reasonable to expect them not to make any noise, not to run about or even not to hit others, as they are stilllearning about how to interact with people. If there is fighting, deliberate attention seeking noisy behaviour or deliberate vandalism by older children, I would find that annoying I must admit - but it's still the responsibility of the parent or carer to be very firm with them that this is not acceptable behaviour. Children do sometimes fight and shout agressively though - I think it's just part of being a child! In terms of being child friendly, no, I don't think the UK is very, notcompared with other European countries like Italy and Spain where children are welcomed a lot more into public places, churches, cafes, restaurants etc - families visit more places and do more things together, rather than doing separate adult/child activities.