To get annoyed with the general intolerance towards children?

[BobMarley]

Now I'm all for children being tought how to behave especially in public, but I recently had my 5-year old snapped at by an old lady because she ran passed her. On the promenade by the beach. Opposite the children's zone. The old lady was sitting outside her beach hut and my daughter ran passed.

Another time someone on Facebook complained about a child incessantly talking on a train. She thought it was unacceptable in public and the parent should have kept the child quiet because it was annoying everyone. Needless to say this was someone who did not have children. When I commented that she might think differently when she has children of her own I got flamed.

AIBU to think people are just intolerant and children aren't allowed to be children and are expected to be mini-adults?

Unfortunately there are too many posts on mumsnet by parents who take offence of other people even looking at their child, let alone interacting with dc. It works both ways. People are scared to talk to children now in the UK which is really sad.

YABU. Those are not examples of "general intolerance" rather a couple of incidents. I think England is by and far one of the most child and family friendly nations I have experienced. I live in France atm and the lack of facilities for children, ranging from high chairs in restaurants to parent/child parking spaces to play areas, is marked. Also, if we go out to a restaurant , yes the kids are there but outside playing by the road when not eating rather than being allowed to sit at the table. There is, I think, even more of a "children should be seen & not heard" attitude to children there than in the UK. I have also heard similar attitudes are prevalent in the so-called child loving countries like Spain & Italy. Yes, they are adored but they are not accommodated which is hard when you live there ft and are not just there on holiday.

I have lived in Catalonia (NE Spain) for 16 years and return to the UK to visit family twice a year. I think that the UK is really child friendly nowadays, especially in terms of facilities. There are changing mats, high chairs, etc in many restaurants and I even found a comfortable breastfeeding room in "Boots". All this from a country which is not supposed to be child friendly?

The kind of criticism levelled at "the continent" is true... kids are up to all hours, though usually only during the summer months. The school holidays are looong... from 22nd June till 7th Sept (until last year that was 14th Sept). When you are living with temperatures of 35 degrees celsius, the sensible thing is to shut yourself away in the middle of the day and come out at 5 in the evening (just the time when everything closes over here!). If you are lucky your kids have a siesta too. The best temperatures are in the evenings - who wants to take the kids to the park at 3pm when they will burn their bums on swings and slides? What I like about all this is that it is perfectly acceptable to have your 3 year old out for supper till 10 if you wish. I think climate pays a large part in where/when it is acceptable to see and hear kids. (Incidentally, those books that say your child's room must be kept at 18-20 degrees C were obviously written by a Brit as this is impossible where I live, even with air-con).

In Catalonia, as mums and dads work, grannies and grandpas play a really important role in childcare and I think this helps to create a generally child friendly society... Having said that, you don't find many little kids in the park in the mornings - they are usually in nurseries or school (free state schooling begins at age 3, though it is not compulsory until age 6). I still think that there are more financial benefits in having kids in the UK - child benefit stops at 3 in Spain, there are no free prescriptions, nappies are very expensive and there are no cheap kids' clothes ranges in the supermarkets (tax is payable on nappies and kids' clothing). There are positives and negatives in all countries...

My 3 y.o. is VERY loud... but I think little kids find it difficult to turn down the volume. If people (in the UK or anywhere) find this unacceptable, that's their problem. My older child has just been diagnosed with a percentage of deafness, so I am starting to wonder if he has this too. That's what I'll say to anyone who complains he's shouting. Another good strategy for anyone complaining about kid behaviour is to remind the moaner that he/she was once a child too!

That sounds lovely Bexcat. When it was hot here a few weeks ago (I know, nothing compared to other countries, but still!) DS just wanted to sleep all day and be up all evening, and I found it worked great - apart from as you say everything being closed (though the swimming pool is open until about 9pm I didn't quite dare take him...) but we'd go to feed the ducks at 7 or 8pm or go for a walk in the park or just play/do jobs in the house.

I was utterly bemused the other day when a friend recounted a tale of a barbecue she went to where there was a - shock horror - 22 month old awake until about 10.30, and everyone in the group (Nct group so all children a similar age) was horrified, even when my friend said "Oh he was quite happy, quite sociable, but still" I don't get it, if he was happy and pleasant, what was the problem?

So is this an example of Britain being unfriendly to children or lack of consideration by parents..
We were camping recently and a baby woke the whole campsite up by screaming at 4am. It went on for quite a long time and lots of people got up to go to the loo, obviously woken up by it. My reaction was how embarrassing for the parents and obviously it is not their fault, they must feel dreadful etc. (Baby was perhaps 9 or 10 months old). However a day or two later the father was heard telling someone in indignant tones "People have been complaining about our baby" as if the rest of the campsite were at fault.
Surely parents also have to feel for other people as well.

Surely the solution to the train/plane situation is to have quiet carriages where people won't be bothered by noises such as mobile phones, mp3 players etc. and children !

Seem to remember First GWR having family carriages on trains to London for a while and providing activity packs for kids. Not sure if this still happens though.

Sadly our society is not child friendly at all. I had an unpleasant few years when my children were smaller and were clearly expected - quite unrealistically - to behave as arses has said "like mini-adults".

Now they are 6 and 8 and more rational, so mercifully it is not such a trial venturing out in public with them as they generally conform to society's stultifying restrictions and have 'restarant voices' etc. Just as well - because when they were little, I would meet rude comments and 'tsks' about my children with a veritable tirade - I have a degree in disparaging remarks and can generally turn someone to mincemeat if the occasion demands it

imahappycamper - what should the parents have done in that situation? Exit the campsite at 4 am? - curious....

Children aren't banned from the quiet coaches in trains (generally the only place I can sit).

Many times I have seen it get to the point where the train manager politely approaches the parent and asks whether they would like to sit elsewhere with their DC, to be shouted at.

I think UK is very child friendly, in comparison with the US...the US doesn't 'do' mother and baby groups (particularly not for free), soft play areas are in shopping malls so that the kids can be dropped off while the parents shop, and child friendly restaurants are basically fast (crap) food. There aren't play parks that cater for toddlers as well as older kids, maternity leave is TEN WEEKS long, no paternity leave at all in most industries and teenaged babysitters are the most popular choice when parents want to go out (among most of the people I know, anyway...and all my American friends live really close to their families!)

I've encountered much more of the kinds of negative bahaviours in America than in England, so maybe that's why I don't find England to be really 'bad' in terms of child friendliness!!

I think people have bizarre ideas in restaurants though. I manage to put up with elderly Doris and Derek discussing their piles at top volume at the pub, yet if my two DC make any noise they tut loudly.

Certain places are better though - family run italian restaurants for example tend to be very kind to children and I had one experience when the owner walked my DD up and down in her buggy so I could eat my lunch in peace and then went and told off another customer who was tutting because I was breastfeeding. :)

But some kids are bloody awful and their parents do nothing to moderate their behaviour. So I can see both sides.

We have taken DS to some quite grand restaurants without too many problems. If DS really loud, we do remove him, have a chat, walk round the block and then return. Eating before seven is never a problem. I'm not sure in the UK I would eat later with an under five, whereas in Spain I feel at ease eating late with small children.

emptyshell you sound so sad - I am sorry that something has made you feel like that but truely can you not see that it is unreasonable to be so angry at children?

Whilst they might not be the "rest of the worlds" they are society's as a whole. What message does it give a child if they are refused even the most basic of interaction/communication? No wonder so many children in the UK grow up unable to have a simple conversation with an adult.

I get irritated when I have to spend 90 minutes being kicked in the back - yes. I fail to see why that is unreasonable when it's blooming annoying and after a while - gets flipping painful.

I also have sod all time for the poster who kicked off because not everyone stopped and smiled at her baby, that's the baby SHE chose to have - people have their own lives, their own life choices, their own priorities - and they, to them, come above some random bird in the supermarket's baby.

Plus if everyone did stop and smile - they'd be on here complaining that everyone wanted to fuss over the baby without her permission... you only ahve to look at the health and safety thread from the other week to see just how badly people take it when others DO show a concern for their children... damned if you do - damned if you don't.

I get incredibly sick of parents trying to fob THEIR life choice off onto everyone else. Loud noises irritate (be it barking dogs, loud children, loud adults) - that's human. Look how many threads on here get started complaining neighbours mow lawns, play music, have a noisy car - yet those same people then actively relish in some cases getting their kids to make a similar level of noise back at other people... the double-standards annoy me, inconsistency annoys me, hypocrisy annoys me.

I have no issue with kids - I have issues with parents who refuse to accept that other people may not be as tolerant toward their offspring as they are (natural really - I don't think that's an uncontroversial statement) and make no effort whatsoever to try to reduce (note I didn't say minimize or eliminate) that on other people.

Of course on here I'm painted as being evil and unreasonable for that - I don't think it's acceptable to allow a child to kick the back of someone's seat without even a "If you swing your legs like that it kicks that lady in front's seat" comment, or a "can you two please stop shouting at each other because that person over there is trying to read a book".

Not everyone in the universe likes children - there are even some people who like their own children, but shockingly might find the behaviour of others' children irritating at times...

To make it clear I don't think you are being unreasonable for getting irritated at bad behaviour. I think you are exceptionally unreasonable to refuse to smile at babies because they are not "your life choice". HTH.

So what would you do? Pass a law declaring everyone HAS to smile at a baby?

There are people out there (I was one until incredibly recently) who find babies extremely distressing to be around - you know those people the smug crew like to pretend don't exist - the infertile, those getting over miscarriages, those separated from their own children... would you make those people smile at every baby too?

Half the time people are walking around getting through life in whatever way they can - they're knackered after work, they've just had a row with the cat, they've had a crud day at work - they go to Tesco wanting to get in and get out - not to be made to stop and smile at every baby on the way. It's utterly unreasonable to have the expectation that they MUST - that's the point I'm getting at. I don't especially care if you feel that someone looking at a tin of baked beans rather than melting over your child's dazzling gummy smile is morally wrong or harming their emotional wellbeing - people have their own lives to lead - no one's universe but their own revolves around your child and it's utterly utterly unreasonable to expect that.

The expectation, bordering on a demand is completely unreasonable and yes, that gets my back up that people think they have the right to demand that.

You don't know what other people are going through in their own lives - they might not be in a space to smile at anyone (Tesco tends to reduce me to feelings of murderous rage and stabbity with the celery thoughts as a general rule). One day you'll lay into someone for NOT smiling - and find out their father's just died or something - hope you feel utterly shit then.

Oh don't be ridiculous of course I am not suggesting a law is passed and neither would I "lay into" anyone for not smiling.

There is a great irony in your whinging that people are ill manered and inconsiderate whilst bitching that you cannot possibly be expected to smile at a baby.

If you are in the queue at Sainsbury's and someone smiles at you, it is good manners to smile back. If I smile at someone and they ignore me then they are rude. Why is it so different in the case of a child?

So you expect people to keep their children quiet so you can read your book in peace? maybe the mums have had a bad day as well, its not just the poor knackered workers prerogative

Bunjies - while I understand the general stress of taking children of any age to a restaurant, I cannot agree with your generalisation about attitudes in France. Having lived in two areas of France, and now having a second home in Brittany adjacent to an excellent 'menu du jour' lunchtime restaurant, I am sorry to say that the only badly behaved children I have ever encountered in any French restaurant are, sadly, British. While I am sure your children are well-behaved and I understand your safety concerns and wish for better facilities, we often cringe when we witness British children shouting, running around, demanding non-menu items then wasting them, eating chips by putting their faces onto the plate etc. etc. (the area has quite a few tourists in the Summer). The simple fact is that in all other countries I have visited, including India and the Far East, children who are taken out for a meal are expected to behave appropriately for the duration of that meal, and learn from the experience, i.e. interact with other people at their table and behave sensibly and considerately in a public environment. We take the ferry to and from Brittany at least three times a year and, without fail, have our evening meals disrupted by appalling British children ranging from nappy-wearing toddlers running around screaming at 11pm covered in facepaint all over their bodies, to sulky arguing - and often drunk - teenagers. These are identifiably British by their behaviour. The French children are equally identifiable by their contrasting good behaviour and we consciously seek to sit near French people as opposed to British. I find it very sad to make these observations as a secondary school teacher in the UK, and as a mother of three adult children, but we have now reached the point of conversing in French together on the ferry in order not to be associated with the other Brits who are so often let down by their children who appear to control the whole family.

Funny how our tolerance level of our own children is very high and it plummets the minute we are around other peoples or when ours have grown up. Its a bit like that experiment about loud music and peoples perception of what is noise pollution. Music was played at a certain volume to a group of people after first polling their taste in music - then they played different music - that they disliked - at the same volume or even slightly quieter. Most of the participants upon being asked which was loudest stated the one they disliked was much louder !!

I bet you the very same people posting on here about the Uk being so unfriendly towards their little darlings - are also the ones that post in disgust when somebody attempts to touch their child.

There've been so many 'how dare strangers touch my baby' threads.

can't have it both ways.

I don't live in the UK although I'm from there. I live in Ireland where people are generally very nice to children although I wouldn't say it's child-friendly (a real lack of facilities and things to do) - and eating out is good in terms of friendliness (high chairs, tolerance of noise and mess) but awful in terms of actual food. We were on hols in England in June and were totally impressed by how helpful and accommodating everyone was (although a black mark for Wells-next-the-Sea which apparently has no baby changing facilities. At. All)

Italy, on the other hand, is full of people (well, women) who will coo at babies and say 'bellissima', but also full of people who just stand there like planks when you are trying to heave a 3 month old, a buggy and 2 heavy bags up 4 steps onto a train...

arses loving your so eloquent posts - sums up my feelings exactly. We have taken DD to really top restaurants since she was 6m and so now, at 2, she's pretty easy to take out, though we have had our fair share of tantrums.
However, so many people come over and say, 'oh isn't she good', 'what a lovely child' and I think well ta, but does that mean if she was making a bit of noise or refused to eat, you'd think she was 'bad'?

We want DD to experience all types of places and sometimes, she doesn't behave like a mini-adult (we are quite strict so don't tolerate bad behaviour but we do expect the odd 2 year old type loudness or laughter).
I find the UK to have great facilities but peple only tend to like 'good' children.

I also agree with comments about France. We went there last year and found them very child intolerant and generally frowning.

Mrs A - if you didn't feel your DD received the welcome you felt she deserved in France, I would guess it was because her 'loudness' was in line with the usual behaviour demonstrated by British children abroad, which is probably dreaded by the restaurant proprietors ... as for 'top restaurants' in any country, I think it's selfish in the extreme to inflict your child's 'tantrums' on fellow diners who are paying good money for a peaceful experience.

doesn't everyone only like 'good' children (when they are other people's...:o) I too would not take my dd (18mo) to a top class restaurant, at least not in the evening, as no-one, least of all her, would enjoy it. When I do finally get out of an evening, I really rather prefer to have all the other toddlers at home in bed too :)