To get annoyed with the general intolerance towards children?

[BobMarley]

Now I'm all for children being tought how to behave especially in public, but I recently had my 5-year old snapped at by an old lady because she ran passed her. On the promenade by the beach. Opposite the children's zone. The old lady was sitting outside her beach hut and my daughter ran passed.

Another time someone on Facebook complained about a child incessantly talking on a train. She thought it was unacceptable in public and the parent should have kept the child quiet because it was annoying everyone. Needless to say this was someone who did not have children. When I commented that she might think differently when she has children of her own I got flamed.

AIBU to think people are just intolerant and children aren't allowed to be children and are expected to be mini-adults?

Last year my family lived in a flat. The people above us used to behave quiet during the day and then switch on TV loud after 8pm at the time when your kids were in bed. Then later the owners and the tenants of the flats received a letter from the management. There was written that children should not run around outside (my never did) and behave calm not to irritate the elderly. One elderly family lived above us and did they care about my children or even us the parents who were getting tired by the end of the day. Sometimes their DVD player was so loud that we felt lik ein Odeon cinema. Also when they had their grandchildren over there so much noise around up till very late. I was so tired with a little baby trying to be as quiet as possible not to disturbe or irritate the neighbours.
Also, about the 11pm. Up till 11 pm you can stay noisy; legally. I do not know what about you guys but to me 11pm is too late and what about the kids. It is advised by the professionals that kids should go to bed around 8pm. So, what about the 11pm? What if the noise continues up untill 11pm on a regular basis? Sure it is not good for the kids but who cares.

"I also have sod all time for the poster who kicked off because not everyone stopped and smiled at her baby, that's the baby SHE chose to have - people have their own lives, their own life choices, their own priorities - and they, to them, come above some random bird in the supermarket's baby."

If that was my post you were referring to, I most certainly did not kick off - I made a general point about the value of human communication.

A child is not some-random-bird-in-the-supermarket's-baby. A child is a human, just like you. Who may have had a "crud day", just like you. Who may just as easily be smiling at you for a reaction because they don't have a lot of positive attention in their lives as any other reason (many do).

Emptyshell, you abhorr inconsistency yet your posts are inconsistent. You suggest that everyone "demands" that you smile at a child, yet you seem to "demand" consideration for the fact that you find children difficult to be around. You demand empathy but seem to have little of it: I apparently "kicked off" because I said it disappoints me to see a child's confusion when their attempts at communication are rejected (that's *any" child, not my own).

My point about smiling in response to a baby's smile has nothing to do with parents or parental demands. It has to do with a recognition of that baby as a unique person in his or her own right. If you feel that a baby doesn't deserve a smile, fine. As you say, we all have our choices to make in life. Yet, don't expect that others should extrapolate your life experiences from your unresponsiveness: don't expect them to consider you as a unique person above their own child. Do what you need to do for yourself, that's fine.. but it's not wrong for a parent to want to see her child responded to simply because its difficult for you.

I dont mind loud children on train. Or crying babies on bus. Or babies banging spoons in restaurants.

It is loud parents that i cant stand, not loud children. 'We like books darling, don't we?' in a loud voice. Like they have made the discovery of the century -books - and all pasengers should clap.

I find children in uk adorable but i think - and i know this is a huge generalization- parents in uk are a bit more insecure and defensive when out with their children. I don't know why is this.

I agree with the posters who said that uk has better facilities, better parks and things to do, cheaper nappies and clothes, better childcare, better child safety (car seats etc), and in a way even more respect to children at least regarding smoking around them. So, yes, i think is very child friendly.

(I am from continent btw)

I'm sorry I really have to disagree re: giving up seat on bus or train: little old ladies fall over and break their hips, children fall over and do themselves no damage, and also they can sit on parents laps.And i reckon children should be brought up to show some respect to old folk. It would certainly not be tolerated on the continent!

Emptyshell - A child isn't a 'life choice', they are a human being.

I am sometimes very unfriendly towards my own child. Only when she's unfriendly to me. mea culpa, I am a badmother.

But I think it's just people.... some people don't like other people (big or small) who are not behaving in the way they want them to behave. As a nation, I think we are especially good at complaining, whinging and tutting, we have turned it into an art form. That it gets directed at babies and children is only part of a bigger picture.

Whinging and Shakespeare - got to love the British.

I take my DSs to restaurants quite frequently, but I have, and will continue to, leave the restaurant if they get too rowdy/naughty. They get fair warning, but I have cancelled/changed to takeaway my order and left. I've done the same at playgroups etc. My DS1 knows I mean it when I tell him he is is on his final warning and then we will leave and go home.

I have also sat him in time out in a store when he threw a temper tantrum because I wouldn't let him handle all the books. I then made him apologise to the sales assistants (when he wouldn't at first he sat in time out beside the counter until he apologised in a sufficiently loud voice that they could actually HEAR him - if he was loud enough to be heard during his tantrum, then he could damn well be loud enough with his apology!) The staff were amazed and very appreciative that someone actually did that with their child.

I've also picked him up like a sack of potatoes and held him on my hip, under my arm facing downwards, with feet at the front (so that he didn't kick anything/anyone) and held him like this all the way through the check out and out of the store, calmly and firmly repeating 'you didn't behave when I asked you to so no I will not put you down now, you do NOT scream and have tantrums in the store'. (Partly to make sure he understood why I was doing this and partly to make sure that OTHERS knew why I was holding DS like a sack of potatoes!!!!). One mum told me she thought it was a brilliant way of keeping a child under control!!!

Yes, people had to put up with my noisy child, but they also got to see that the child in question was not being permitted to just get away with it.

Too many parents don't want to give things up in order to teach their children a lesson. So you have to leave the cinema/park/restaurant/get off the train early because your child is noisy, you don't usually have to do it too many times for your DCs to realise that you are very serious about the impending punishment should they not behave!

Love your work, arses. I'm really interested that this discussion keeps being framed as the rights and wants of the parent vs the rights and wants of the other adults sharing the same public space. What keeps being forgotten is that the children we're discussing are people.

"chitchat07 - I like your style, your technique will pay off in the long run. When my three were little (DS circa 5, DTDs circa 3), my friend who had brought up three girls observed my strictness, similar to yours, and instead of the usual barrage of criticism I encountered (usually in places such as supermarkets where the sweet-looking twins were considered public property by all and sundry), she said: 'There are two ways to bring children up - the lazy way, letting them do what they want, or the harder way, showing them who's in charge'. I took this as a compliment at the time, I have never forgotten it, and now when I look proudly on their successsul lives and general attitudes, I really do not remember major stresses once they had grown past the early toddler phase when my tactics were very similar to yours. We travelled the world with them and almost invariably had a great time, there was never any question in their mind that DH and I were firmly in charge. I agree with laquita* who has noticed that many of today's parents are afraid of their children / being seen to discipline them, this is the root of the problems being discussed here i.e. children knowing that they will probably get away with loud, disruptive & inappropriate behaviour in a public place due to parents' fear of criticism for imposing discipline. As a secondary teacher, I never cease to be amazed at the amount of children who have never heard the words: 'You will do as you are told' until they come to school. The ones who are used to doing as they are told when it comes to the crunch are much happier and secure children, which I think speaks for itself. Within my school, the strictest teachers are always the most appreciated by the full range of age and ability students.

This is turning into a very interesting thread. I particularly like arses posts in that we should look at children as people that have just as much right to use public spaces as anyone else.

It is disappointing that there are some posters that make this a parenting issue, which I don't think it is. There is no excuse for children misbehaving in public. But I was referring to children that aren't misbehaving, just being children.

I have seen parents in restaurants disciplining their children for not actually misbehaving. They are just a bit restless after sitting down for over an hour, the parents are so afraid of being judged by other people.

And on the subjects of restaurants, quite often children aren't even acknowledged by the waitressing staff. Which is sad, then they often are expected to sit still and entertain themselves why the adults talk. I would get bored too, if someone expected that of me now. Let alone if I'm a child and have a short attention span and don't like to sit still!

I just wish that kids could be a bit more accepted included in everyday life. All these separate facilities are great, but it doesn't help teach children how to behave in environments that aren't just for them. And it doesn't help society in general in accepting that children are a part of this society and should be included as such.

Jesus, I think i've heard it all now. i must remember to make it my buisness to smile at every baby/child i see in case they are traumatised in later life!!

Bobmarley. If the children are getting bored and restless in restaurants, then it is clear that they shouln't be there in the first place. It''s the parents who want to be there obviously, so when the the bored/restless kid kicks off,then it's the rest of us who have to suffer..

curryfreak I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. If we included children as full members in society as a whole they might not misbehave in the first place. And what is now often regarded as misbehaving wouldn't be seen that way?

albert, so do you expect the adults in your life 'to do as they are told', or do as they are 'asked'. You may be surprised but children want to please adults, and respond to kindness much better. Only speak to a child as you would an adult, they will respect you, and in return respond in the way you require.
Mutual respect is earnt by both sides, its not a question 'being in charge'. I'd much rather my children see themselves as valued, they behave themselves, respect others and consider others feelings, as this is lead by example. I have a disabled child and he has to follow a painful and tiring routine of O.T. and Physio, and his bahaviour can reflect the frustration of this, but by understanding and helping him he gets through. Tell a child something often enough and they believe it, so tell them positively, isn't that how you prefer to be treated?

Well with that argument onedeadbadger we can kill almost all the discussions on the whole mumsnet forum!

I think the UK has a very unhealthy attitude towards adult/children relationships, especially compared to Southern Europe.

There is a pervasive fear of paedophilia which prevents adult males from talking to children directly. At the same time there is a ridiculous worship of "little darlings" who can do no wrong.

I am very intolerant of badly behaved children but pay them the respect of addressing them directly rather than ignoring them or giving their parents a dirty look. On the other hand, hearing a happy family with well behaved children is a delight. I am equally intolerant of our 14 month old misbehaving, but being non verbal, the only thing I can really do is remove him when he annoys others.

We loved taking George, our son (I refuse to use the horribly twee "DS") to Spain as everyone chatted to him normally, as if he was a little person, and not a different species of animal.

You can be in charge and respect your children theat is not mutually exclusive!

I expect children to run around like crazy, get dirty, shout in the park or any open space, as long as they are not unduly upsetting anyone else.

I expect them to sit at the table and hold a conversation in a cafe. I expect them to speak politely to the staff in the cafe and any customers who speak to them.

I expect them to learn the social mores of society from me as I am an adult and my role is to prepare them to be fully functioning, social beings who can interact well on any occasion.

Or should I adopt the 'sit on my arse and scream across the room/playgroup/play park' parenting that it is often the norm. I had to leave our local park yesterday because it had been taken over by a group who ignored their children until fighting/screaming commenced then they waded in shouting and dragging kids away. Far better to intervene quietly, explain how to resolve conflicts surely?

YANBU, children are at best'toolerated' in this country. It comes from reporduction being seen as a lifestyle choice rather than a normal, natural part of life.

I think it's swings and roundabouts. Some days I get lovely comments about my son and his chatting (we were delayed on a train for a considerable length of time, and he was happily chatting away (with me, and anyone who showed an interest)

And some days I get tuts and comments for not disciplining him if he is gdoing something someone takes exception to, noisy or otherwise.

I think look at the bigger picture - if you get a combination of comments and most pf them over time are good, then you're doing ok, and it's just grumpy people, if, however, you ONLY get negative comments either a) rethink your parenting style or b) consider some potential SNs (if you are already doing ALL you can to mitigate) or c) you live ina very grumpy place!

I actually DON'T think this country is all that child friendly, child provisioned, yes, friendly no. I compare largely to NYC, which is NOT famed for child friendliness OR provision, adn yet EVERY place we went in staff had a smile and a few words to share with ds, customers were friendly with him even subway riders!

in this country, diners in restos glare at you before you've even sat down to eat and ds has said or done nothing, ditto tube passengers, by and large. So, no I think that while we do have betetr provision for children, we are not very friendly about them

Oh and a quick parent boast / happiness here with regartd to seat sharing... ds sat at the bus stop the other day and said, "mummy, if some ladies come here, I can stand up and they can sit in my seat, becasue it's nice to do that!" he's 3.5 and has some issues, so I was chuffed to bits!

"Jesus, I think i've heard it all now. i must remember to make it my buisness to smile at every baby/child i see in case they are traumatised in later life!!"

No. That's not what I said.

It's about recognising the child as a human being. Smiling in response to a baby who smiles at you merely involves a recognition of that baby as a person; a recognition of their humanity. I don't believe that children are "emotionally traumatised" by unresponsive adults in the slightest. I think it's probably inevitable that it happens, hence in my initial post I said I simply didn't like to watch "the road to reality" in action.

We live in a society where we don't know our neighbours, where talking to strangers on the bus is at best strange and at worst inviting trouble, where people scurry by youths behaving badly because they are afraid of the consequences of interacting with them: an anonymous society. Of course many people don't smile or interact with babies in this context: the baby is just some-random-bird-in-the-supermarket's-baby, someone we don't need to consider given the fact we have had a "crud" day and our own choices and priorities.

I am simply pointing out the obvious, here. The lack of consideration for other human beings in a mostly urban, anonymous society is not one confined to parents with unruly children. If you want children to be respectful and considerate of your need to read a book in silence on the train after your long day at work, you need to demonstrate a bit of give and take. You can't really say "I don't particularly like children and I would rather look at a can of baked beans than smile at a gummy baby" or scowl at them when they are just being children yet expect them to consider your needs ahead of their own. A lack of consideration breeds a lack of consideration. Again, I am not discussing annoyance when children are being inappropriate, rude or excessively boisterous without discipline. Merely annoyance at the everyday behaviour of normal children

Ideally, you want a middle ground. I see this all the time on public transport. A child makes contact with a stranger, the stranger smiles or asks about the child, there's a brief exchange and the parent/carer guides the child to terminate the interaction "leave the nice man alone now Johnny" (teaching the child that the person is a stranger and that there are different rules of communication with strangers). Brief interactions like these teach children about how to behave in community: what is acceptable with strangers etc. Some people seem to think it is solely the parents' duty to teach children about polite behaviour, yet are happy to model rude, aggressive and disrespectful behaviour to children and wonder why their needs aren't being considered.

One of the earlier posters suggested that an adult should stand up on public transport for their 3 year old DC.
I'm interested in what other people think - my thought is that your baby/toddler should go on your knee, and older children should stand up for adults but perhaps IABU?

arses, why on earth do you think that i would have the slightlest interst in your children, or anyone else's for that matter? I wouldn't in a million years think that you should be interested in/smile/engage with mine.
I dont actually like babies very much,- or find them very interesting.
Why do you think i should, to make you feel better?

where does this whole 'adult' spaces and 'children's' spaces thing come from? We are all people, we all have a right to be here.

For example, I feel sorry for my 12-yr-old son who loves live music. Rock music is his passion, his everything. Most live music round here is in pubs. He is not allowed in after 8pm....now, he's not a toddler, he wouldn't be unsupervised or drinking, he just wants to be there and cannot. What would be the harm?

my other son is 10. the nearest park/open space is 20 minutes walk away. In many European towns, there is a park on virtually every street corner. Why is it so different here?