Adoption

[Lancome]

I didn't know where to post this, but can anyone tell me if it's possible to Un- adopt a child. Give up all parental responsibilities?

no matter what !

My relationship with DD1 has hugely improved since the 'professionals' have fallen away. No-one to play up to, so no point making me out to be a witch. And hopefully, somewhere, the realisation that the people who give you an easy ride are not necessarily the ones who really love you.

The thing is (and thanks for the compliments!) I am not a saint. I am bl**dy minded (ask my parents ). I cope because I have no alternative. I am glad I didn't know what I was getting into because I would probably have chickened out. Yet out of all the feelings I have gone through, regret isn't one of them (yet!).

Devora, just to answer your question, at around para 35 there were sessions with camh every 3 weeks or so and the daughter having art therapy; at a different stage there was long term and regular support from someone called nina; i think more but can't remember exactly - so to me that sounds like a lot but possibly not.

Bloody hell - art therapy! (Apologies to any art therapists reading) DS's issues sound less than this girls and he's younger and he's had weekly sessions with a psychologist (proper trained psychologist, therapists are often patchy in their abilities to deal with serious issues) and it hasn't even touched the surface of what he needs. Luckily we have a very supportive school who are basically working their way through every therapy they have available to them which I agree with (I've vetoed a couple).

CAMHS every 3 weeks doesn;t sound much and it could mean very little depending in what the therapy during the sessions was.

Adoption support is non-existent, though I did get a supportive email

I thought you might be interested to know what happened next in the case I posted - they appealed against refusal to make her a ward and they won. So they didn't give up. But I don't think they ever saw her again.

suesspiciousminds.com/2012/12/31/the-case-i-am-most-pleased-about-this-year/

I am sorry to have posted something that was so triggering for some people. But it has been a very interesting, if depressing thread. I do think it is important that people are open about these issues, as at the moment we have a government just spouting a 'warm loving home' mantra and wanting to increase the number of adoptions without a concurrent increase in amount of support.

But the Children and Families Act 2014 has introduced a maximum time for care proceedings of 26 weeks which may help ... but only if children aren't bounced around from foster placement to foster placement. And I am also worried that the impact of abusive parenting leaves its mark at a very early age, so even the 26 week timescale may not be quick enough for some.

I agree that we can't ask for 'exceptional' parents to adopt. Because we won't find them. We need parents who are good enough and who can get the help they need at the right time. I struggle to think who out there would be sufficiently 'exceptional' to manage some of this without help, particularly if you are not given the full story at the outset.

Sorry Italian, in answer to your (much earlier) question, I don't know how common disruption is and I think we urgently need to be clear about this. I agree it is crazy that there isn't more follow up.

I still haven't gone back to the Bristol research but I am guessing the problem in understanding is how disruption is defined. Is it the child and parents never having contact again? Or a child moving out for some or all of the time? Or parents giving up before the adoption order is made? And even if we had those stats, how do we find out who is barely hanging on, or only hanging on with really intensive support?

there are about 5,000 adoptions every year and the Potato group has about 300 members, all of whom are experiencing challenges with their teenagers, but I don't know how many of that group have actually lost contact entirely. But I have heard some horror stories about social workers who blame the adoptive parents for the children's behaviour and then encourage the children to get back in touch with their birth parents! its utterly insane.

But this is what happens when you have dogma and agendas without actually engaging with what is happening. John Hemming says local authorities snatch babies to meet targets, the government just pushes adoption as a great thing without actually putting in the support and structures to help these children and their parents. Neither extreme is helpful but it seems to be the quality of the debate we are stuck with from those in power.

And I think that social services has been so poorly run for so long that actually they have no concept of what good practice would look like. Our la was allegedly outstanding and I shudder think what less than that level of professionalism looks like. They don't just need more money (although they really do need that), they need a complete overhaul IMO.

I have a question, Spero, I hope you don't mind. The child wanted (I think) to be effectively "unadopted", and the judge commented that he didn't think the child understood that the care order would not have the effect of terminating the adoption. Obviously the court has to do what is best for the child and not simply follow wishes, but if the parents had been found to be abusive and culpable would it have theoretically been an option for the court to issue a new adoption order effectively terminating the legal relationship? And if so how often does that happen?

I am sure that in theory the court could make a second adoption order which would wipe out the first - but who would be applying for that order??

I suppose in theory the birth mother could apply to adopt her own child which would restore her legal status as mother... but given the very serious abuse the birth mother inflicted on this child, I can't see how any court would be willing to make that order.

I don't know of any case where this has happened. Generally, what seems to happen when the adoption breaks down is that the child goes into section 20 accommodation, the adoptive parents are then sidelined and not told anything or consulted and the child often goes further off the rails.

the chances of anyone else coming forward to adopt a traumatised and angry teenager would appear to be slim to none.

Maybe I have been unfair!

Apparently the gov is going to make more support available....
www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/01/04/money-adoption-support-government-sets-childrens-services-plans/

That's brilliant news about the adoption support fund. It has meant I actually got some help this year (previously all I was offered was a reading list!). I was anxious that it might disappear in the cuts.

As far as the support goes...

"NA worked with K and her parents between October 2009 and December 2010 (just over a year but we do not know how often they saw her, do we?

"When she began working with the family...NA... knew nothing about attachment disorders. By reading and arranging to go on courses...NA.... took positive steps to learn about attachment disorders. Her industry and her commitment to this family are highly commendable."

So this was not a person who came into the situation able and ready to help. She obviously did a good job and showed a lot of commitment personally but let's be honest, why was no person already experienced in these issues not provided!?

Don't apologise Spero, for posting this link onto this thread... I think it is good for those of us who are adopters to chat about the 'issues', those especially affected may pick up tips/hints/even sanity saving ideas, and the casual reader may be able to influence the world for good!

So a casual reader might not want to blame adoptive parents for all mistakes they make, knowing we are all human and there really are no such things as exceptional parents (well not sure I've met any!)

Maybe readers will be demanding better post adoption support for all adopters. Asking their MPs to support things like better support and keep our politicians accountable.

Maybe even if appropriate offering themselves as respite carers or foster carers (if appropriate).

Devora, I am sending flowers because I want more tears! (Disappoint me!)

Hugs to all the amazing parents here.

why was no person already experienced in these issues provided!? not not provided!

I still think that the fund is a sticking plaster cynically applied to a headless corpse. Which is a lovely analogy to start the day...

I've not tried accessing the fund or support so I may be talking out my arse here, but my impression is very much that even if there is money to pay for it the expertise simply doesn't exist.

I know from our own training/prep that was the case. A SW stood in front of us and said something like, 'I was asked to come and talk to you about X, but I don't know about X, so I took to the Internet and found....'

That was our 'training' in the effects of trauma on child development.

There is expertise, but it is expensive, places like Family Futures where K was supposed to be referred except the LA didn't get round to it.

It seems to me that the ASF is a drop in the ocean compared to the budget cuts being imposed at the same time. A useful distraction would be the cynical (but possibility accurate?) view

Spero, thanks for answering - so you are saying that it rarely happens? I asked not about this case, and not thinking about the birth parents either. You say that most adoptees go further off the rails after a disruption, but that isn't my personal experience - the ones I know grew up and sorted out their own issues as young adults and became fully functioning well rounded adults. So I am thinking this is the reason why I seem to be a minority of one on this thread! Do adult adoptees ever apply to get adoption orders cancelled?

I know of adults as per the above partly because I grew up with a couple of children who had come from care, and partly because my job involves a certain amount of management and so I get to hear what people want to tell me about their past. Based on what I know, there is every possibility K will mature into a successful adult.

When I referred to "exceptional" I meant people who are able to form and maintain relationships with children including troubled children, able to see and develop a child's unique qualities, mentally and emotionally strong. From reading a lot of adoption stories, it seems to me that the successful adoptions are to do with the parents having these qualities - that is where my opinion comes from.

I am very sorry if any AP reading this took my comments personally - that was absolutely not intended.

Incidentally I absolutely agree that better selection, better training and post support is needed and that an overhaul of sw practice is needed (I have said all that on another thread). I think that what makes me really angry is that there is a lot of research and recommendations by experts out there which is not filtering through to practice - such as the 2010 research which someone found in a recent thread. And indeed I think that is partly to do with political agendas and money.

PS - the question of adult adoptees - I realise that for the most part it is not relevant as the adoptee is an adult, but it may become relevant in relation to next of kinship, or if the law changed about grandparents having right to see grandchildren etc.

The main problems with the adoption support fund, I think, have been that (a) adopters have not been told about what it is and how to use it (in our area, its availability got round by word of mouth, presumably lots of adopters still haven't heard of it), and (b) that it was a one-off. We need sustained funding to allow for proper service development.

To illustrate why, lots of adoptive parents have tried to get referrals to Family Futures in recent years, and been refused because it's expensive. This year, because of the ASF, social services agreed to refer my family to Family Futures, only to find that they are not accepting referrals, not even to their waiting list which is now ridiculously long. There must have been a massive scramble to them once ASF became available. Obviously, one-off pots of money do not help in matching supply with demand.

Italian, no tears yet today (though there were last night when I read a lovely PM from 3point) but it's not yet 10am

You say that most adoptees go further off the rails after a disruption, but that isn't my personal experience - the ones I know grew up and sorted out their own issues as young adults and became fully functioning well rounded adults

Sorry, I am talking about adoptees who were probably never on the rails to start with. The degree of trauma they were exposed to in utero and as young children has left them with severe problems which a)are not explained to the adopters and b) as many have already stated, the 'expert' help they get is from a SW who knows nothing about attachment but has read about it on the internet.

I am not talking about some teenage angst but children with an actual attachment disorder, which is serious and which requires consistent intervention.

But interesting question about adults applying to revoke their own adoption orders. I don't know of such a case. Adoption orders are revoked, very, very rarely - I can only think of one case recently and I think that was because the child had family members who had been overlooked and the procedure had not been fair.

Spero, would there be much to be gained, legally, from allowing adults to 'divorce' their parents, adopted or otherwise? I could see it might bring emotional satisfaction, but would it actually allow adults to do things they currently can't?

I can see our courts clogged up with people divorcing family members left, right and centre. I'm sure we've all got a few we'd like to get shot of

If you are hearing people's histories through work then you have already selected those who have been able to sort themselves out. You don't come across those on the streets, in and out of prison or psych hospital, those with substance abuse habits.

Anecdotally, from AP's with the most severely traumatised children old enough to 'report back', some children do mature in their early and mid-20s, and gain some sort of stability. But it is not the norm.

Spero, would there be much to be gained, legally, from allowing adults to 'divorce' their parents, adopted or otherwise? I could see it might bring emotional satisfaction, but would it actually allow adults to do things they currently can't?

This is an interesting angle on the debate. I actually disagree, I can't see that there would be much to be gained by allowing adults to 'divorce' their parents. As adults with mental capacity to make your own decisions, you are allowed to set the parameters of your relationships with other adults; if you find your parents toxic you don't ever have to see them again and they won't have any legal hold over you once you are an adult.

In my line of work, I see on a daily basis that allowing people to bring their emotional issues into a court arena is immensely destructive to both their emotional peace of mind and their pocket.

I think if you are so disillusioned with a parent that you want to sever any legal ties to them, it is better to try and work out why you are in so much emotional pain, rather than multiplying this pain a thousand fold by embarking on court proceedings. An order from the court saying that they are no longer your parent may have little impact on how you have been made to feel over many years.

BUT fathers who have behaved very abusively have had their parental responsibility removed by courts... its not outside the realms of possibility I guess. And I could see how some people would find it freeing.

Thanks, Spero - actually, we are in agreement. I was just checking if there was something I was missing before dismissing it as a rubbish idea. I can't see any good argument for allowing adults to 'divorce' or 'unadopt' their parents.

I think it depends. If an adoption lasted only a few years (in terms of accommodation and responsibility) and the adoptive parents were toxic to the extent that they might try to cause problems with grandchildren, especially if adoptee died etc (and SW might consider the AP as potential carers) then I can imagine that is a slightly different situation to people going NC with birth parents. But I am not sure. I think people who stop allowing contact with certain family members are often doing it to stop their children being negatively affected by whatever the problem is, rather than because of their own emotional pain.

Toko - yes, that is exactly right!