Why Gaza?

[Mixymaxymoxy]

There are several atrocities happening in the world that could be described as genocides. Sudan, DCR, Rohingya in Myanmar, Yazidi in Iraq,

why has the Gaza / Palestinian cause motivated young people in the west more than any of the above ?

if you are a protester, how do to decide which cause to protest about ? If your children are protesting, why do you think they chose this one ?

I’m 54 and was not politically active when I was younger. I’m seeing the protests in France and elsewhere and wondering why Gaza so much part of the protests?

And is the Government acting on what this " idiot Labour MP " said ?

If not, why be bothered about it? Just dont vote for that MP at the next election, if they happen to be your MP.

Lets have a look. Do you mean this MP ?

Labour MP calls for UK ‘military action’ against Israel - The Jewish Chronicle (thejc.com)

From that article, this is what this MP said.

“On the issue of disarmament, should we not also be calling for Israel’s disarmament, given the atrocities that have been committed?"

“Previous governments have intervened in the Middle East to take action on human rights abuses and protect international trade routes. Is it not about time that military action was taken against Israel as well?”

Ah. It's a rhetorical question as part of a bit of reasoning. Not what you said in your post at all really. You omitted parts of what he said, missed the context, then you exaggerated it.

If this is the " idiot Labour MP " you are talking about, then I would say your post is into misinformation territory.

Absolutely. So, so sick of it.
Plucky Palestinians desperately fighting back by raping teenagers at a festival and slaughtering peaceniks in a Kibbutz.
How can people pretend that Hamas didn’t know exactly what they were doing, that their actions were somehow desperate, rather than designed to provoke a response? What did they think would happen in response to October 7th?

We aren't talking about a Jewish person condemning Hamas being asked for their view on the Israeli government, we are talking about you saying that it is 'odd' that the Jewish community (unclear who this is, it's clear that you don't consider yourself a part of it though) have condemned the slaughter of Jews but not the actions of the Israeli government.

I mean, it's pretty easy

The horrendous slaughter of Jews by Hamas is something to do with British Jews.

The actions of the Israeli government are nothing to do with British Jews.

@Darkermornings well it looks like genocide to me, but obviously I’m not there so I can’t be 100% sure. I assume you live nearby and can see first hand what’s happening. Otherwise you can’t know for sure either.

But whatever - I’m not prejudiced against people of the Jewish faith, and all your waffle won’t change that fact! I have no judgement of Jewish people, pre or otherwise.

What published policy are you talking about? Israel has no official policy advocating for genocide. Its stated, documented policy is the destruction of Hamas.

If you’re referring to inflammatory comments made by individual politicians, those remarks do not constitute state doctrine or military directives. If we are judging sides based on actual 'published policy,' look at the foundational Hamas Covenant, which explicitly calls for the total obliteration of Israel.

Of course they’re exposed to it, there’s quite a lot of it all over social media.
‘From the river to the sea’ and ‘Death to the IDF’ chants, Palestinian flag (or watermelon) painted over the map of Israel, framing October 7th as ‘resistance’, just to name a few examples.

What does ' military action' mean if it doesn't mean military action? Is it the same as ' by any means necessary not meaning 'by any means necessary' when people ask if they mean terrorism and murder?

This is what @Bringemout posted, and what I was replying to.

"Bringemout · Today 20:04
Oh and we also had the spectacle of an idiot Labour MP suggesting we declare war on Israel"

But the MP, if it is the one I found, did not suggest the UK declare war on Israel, did he ? No, he asked a rhetorical question as part of a reasoned logical point.

I could be totally wrong. Maybe I got the wrong MP, or maybe this MP said something additional to what is reported. He said, it was reported, and I posted this -

“Previous governments have intervened in the Middle East to take action on human rights abuses and protect international trade routes. Is it not about time that military action was taken against Israel as well?”

You said this :"What does ' military action' mean if it doesn't mean military action? " And that is a valid question I think. And I suppose it is up to the reader/ listener, to decide if he asked a rhetorical question. If one decides it was not ,totally valid point I reckon.

But you expanded what he said by adding this. Quote "Is it the same as ' by any means necessary not meaning 'by any means necessary' when people ask if they mean terrorism and murder?"

And honestly, I do not really understand what that means. Sorry. I think you are maybe suggesting Tahir Ali MP supports terrorism ? Can you clarify ?

By 'Jewish community' I mean the Jewish press and the mainstream representative bodies.

I don't think it's as easy as you say. Of course Oct 7th merits comment from British Jews, but you seem to be saying that the response to Oct 7th has nothing to do with British Jews. That does indeed strike me as odd. You have a view on the crime, but not the scale of the punishment.

Of course the regular operation of the Israeli government is nothing to do with British Jews (although when people suggest that it is, I think this is mainly thoughtlessness rather than Jew hatred). However if one comments on things that happen involving the defence of Israel (eg Oct 7th) then one can legitimately be asked for their view about all aspects of it, including the response to it. I wouldn't expect to be asked about Israeli settler violence in my regular everyday discourse but if I publicly offered a view on Israeli settlements it would be reasonable to be asked my opinion on Israeli settler violence, no?

”if one comments on things that happen involving the defence of Israel (eg Oct 7th)”

WTAF. ‘Things that happen involving the defence of Israel’. You think that a Jewish community expressing devastation at the horrendous events of October 7th which included rape, torture and killing of families, the massacre of young people at a music festival and the taking of a large number of hostages including children and the elderly and the live-streaming of this to their families and social media means they are fair game to ask about the intricacies of a foreign war? Are you serious?

Ok, you’re Jewish. You are now representing the Jewish community so you have to be fair to them and their views and experiences, including those who have family and friends who have been murdered, because you are speaking for them. What’s your statement on the conflict? When do you issue it? October 8th while everyone’s still in shock? While there are still hostages being held? When the last hostages are released? Off you go, person who wants to speak for everyone on an incredibly complex situation that you have no control over.

So all the hate marchers should be quizzed on their opinion on Hamas and their backers? Why are you only targeting Jews here? I think that’s odd. No reason I should be responsible for a measured debate of all aspects of the conflict, that’s really beyond reasonable.

All the marchers should definitely be asked about Hamas, yes! Both sides should acknowledge the misdeeds of both sides.

I don't think we understand each other. Yes, 7th Oct was all you say it was. All I'm saying is that it is odd when one condemns it to assume that questions about the response to it are evidence of anti-Semitism as opposed to being an obvious avenue of conversational enquiry.

I don't want to speak for everyone. I just say that those who speak should do so acknowledging both the act and the response. On Oct 8th there had been no response. Today there has been .

As a British Jew, of course I have an opinion about what Hamas did on October 7. It was a massacre and it has terrified the hell out of me (and every Jew I know). How could it not, it's been the largest single attack on Jews since the holocaust.

Do I have an opinion on the Israeli's governments actions against Hamas and Gaza a result. No. Why should I? I live in the UK. I have nothing to do with Israel. I have no control over the Israeli government, nor do I get to vote in any Israeli elections. But, I totally understand why they're doing what they are. Hamas started a war, Israel are defending themselves. If Hamas didn't want Gaza and its inhabitants flattened, they had two choices - to not start the war in the first place, but they did, and chose not to defend their citizens using them as human shields, selling off aid etc. etc, all the while those who fund Hamas and are at the very top giving orders are living in Qatar and other Arabic states. Oh, and yes, there is no famine in Gaza, nor is it a genocide. How can it be when the population of Gaza has increased since October 7? You know who did suffer a genocide? The Jews during WWII. Indeed, 80 years later, our numbers haven't really increased to even half of what they were prior to the war.

I had no real thoughts or feelings about Israel prior to all this. It's not a country I have felt any ties to nor any desire to visit. However, now, gosh, am so pro-Israel - Jews need it more than ever - and have even considered moving there. I think it was Golda Meir who said that until Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews there will be no peace. I agree with this. They don't want peace, they want blood. Jewish blood. Remember, Hamas has a pay for slay policy - kill a Jew, get paid. That tells you all you need to know. To be frank, I am going to care as much about Gaza as Hamas does.

Only Hamas could start a war and then cry vicim when things don't go their way. It's a bit like a man putting on a dress, claiming to be a woman and the most marginalised person in society. It's mind-boggling how many people have fallen for both.

Ah you expect a briefing from our intelligence agencies so that you personally are made aware of the who/what/where of intelligence operations. Ridiculous, truly ridiculous. There is regularly evidence that courts don’t share with the public.

I see, you don’t want to make a statement on behalf of the Jewish community about the Israeli government’s actions in Gaza. But you think it’s odd that others don’t want to either?

We are not talking about conversational enquiry, despite you persistently trying to suggest that we are. We are talking about your disappointment that the Jewish community have not commented on the actions of the Israeli government and that this is odd given that they condemned the massacre of Jews by Hamas.

But there is literally no equivalence here. It is extremely easy to offer a statement of condemnation of a terrorist group who just murdered over a thousand Jews, some of whom are friends and family. It is not easy to offer a statement that represents the Jewish view on the actions of the Israeli government post-October 7th.

And it is antisemtic to hold Jews collectively responsible for the actions of Israel. Expecting them to comment as a specific community and judging them if they don’t seems to be headed this way.

Eh? I'll happily give my thoughts on the Israeli government's response to Oct 7th if.you want. And I don't think it's hard for the a Jewish press or representative groups to do so either. Asking them to do so isn't anti-semitic.

Why is it ridiculous to expect the law to be followed ?

I notice you are putting the phrase "you personally" in. Why ? Well I know why, because you are trying to "other" me. To make me out as "non standard", "an enemy of the state" perhaps? YOUR version of the State.

Hey, I expect if Tommy Ten Names was to vanish, unexplained, and Lowe was recorded in Hansard asking, "where is he?", you will be posting here saying " State secret, shut your mouth". I doubt it. But it seems you do not think the law should be applied equally.

I think that it would be incredibly difficult for the Jewish press to have formed a coherent response representing British Jews thoughts about the actions of the Israeli government post-October 7th.

But if you think it would be easy, then perhaps you can give more details about what you would have said and when you would have said it - if you were the Jewish press.

Yep it’s not going to happen. I‘m wary of anyone who thinks Israel / UK intelligence should be disrupted. It’ll make us less safe. Even Labour have tried to guard against that, even with the recent goods announcement.

The Jewish press can editorialised, as it does all the time. It doesn't speak for everyone at any time.

My own view is that Oct 7th was an abhorrent terrorist attack with no justification whatsoever, but that the response has been massively disproportionate, risking Israel's international reputation,, straining alliances and thus potentially leading to a less secure future for Israel as a whole. So if I was writing an editorial in the Jewish press I'd say something like that.

As ever, the first post nails it.

I know people will say it has nothing to do with that.

No, of course it doesn't. Nothing at all to see here.

Large Jewish population here? 287,000 Jews in England & Wales. Hardly a large population by any description. Nope. And certainly nothing to to with people in Israel looking or acting like British people. So that leaves one thing..

I said relatively large, not large. And it is relatively large compared to the population of, say, Sudanese people, which was the comparator used. The British Jewish population is also more settled and influential. I mean the actual foreign secretary is Jewish, for example.

I know you dismiss my idea that people are more interested in lighter skinned foreigners than darker skinned ones, but I stand by it as an idea. Other reasons may be that the Middle East is economically more important than other parts of the world to the UK, and that Israel is a Western style democracy therefore more familiar politically than other places.

That's not to say that there might not be some anti-Semitism / Islamophobia in the coverage. But it's not the only reason.

You said "I pointed out that the Jewish community has been quick to condemn Hamas but less quick to condemn Israel"

Your 'editorial' representing your view isn't the Jewish community condemning Israel is it? Because you've just said you can't speak for them.