Why Gaza?

[Mixymaxymoxy]

There are several atrocities happening in the world that could be described as genocides. Sudan, DCR, Rohingya in Myanmar, Yazidi in Iraq,

why has the Gaza / Palestinian cause motivated young people in the west more than any of the above ?

if you are a protester, how do to decide which cause to protest about ? If your children are protesting, why do you think they chose this one ?

I’m 54 and was not politically active when I was younger. I’m seeing the protests in France and elsewhere and wondering why Gaza so much part of the protests?

If you go to the social media of my workplace’s Palestinian society that is sponsored by our workplace union, they clearly state their goal (pinned on the top of the insta) is the eradication of Israel. They chant for globalising the intifada and the river to the sea hate chants. It’s the entirety of their feed and the bulk of their signs and banners. My workplace union and others overwhelmingly supports this, has talks in support, sponsors the student groups, invites them to join their pickets and shares stalls with them at student events. This isn’t a secret and is very much a majority viewpoint of the organisation.

edinburgh university if interested to look. Pin at the top of the page ‘upholding the Thawabet’ several other pages but this is one.

But but but the mosque is built on top of the Temple....

Of course there isn't. But I think your post illustrates the difficulty people have in debating this topic in a way that doesn't end with accusations of anti-Semitism.

I pointed out that the Jewish community has been quick to condemn Hamas but less quick to condemn Israel. You assumed that I was being anti-Semitic (I am Jewish by the way) because you assumed that I was suggesting that the Jewish community has an obligation to comment on the actions of Israel. It doesn't, and I didn't say it did.

However, if the Jewish community chooses to comment on one side of the conflict, it looks odd not to also comment on the other. People may see this silence as complicity. Those who disagree that silence is complicity should extend the same assumption to those on the Gaza marches who don't say anything about those marching with them whose views they do not share.

It's really difficult to find a form of words on this topic that doesn't lead to assumptions of bad faith. You responded to my comment not by engaging on the substantive issue but by labelling it anti-Semitic. Such things happen a lot when I'm pretty sure no offence is meant and where people are trying to say things carefully but not quite carefully enough. The linguistic tightrope is really tough, and I think there are people looking to take offence sometimes. There are obvious examples of anti-Semitism, but most on the Gaza protests or the political left are far from that.

It is difficult to debate this topic because criticism of the actions of the Israeli government is often misconstrued accidentally or on purpose (or is clumsily made in the first place). It is hard even for me (a well read, well educated Jewish person) to understand how to frame an argument that simultaneously supports Israel's right to exist whilst opposing the actions of the defence force protecting its existence. So one can understand how intemperate language sometimes creeps into regular discourse on this topic.

It is particularly hard when one should rightly hear Jewish voices critical of Hamas, but can ot ask why those same voices are quiet about the actions of the Israeli government without being told that the suggestion is anti-Semitic. People should either comment on this topic fully, or they should not.

If we came at one another from a place of good faith, and assumed the best in one another rather than immediately lurching for labels, we would achieve more.

There was 'no to oil' thing as well.

@Laptopfangirl It is particularly hard when one should rightly hear Jewish voices critical of Hamas, but can ot ask why those same voices are quiet about the actions of the Israeli government without being told that the suggestion is anti-Semitic. People should either comment on this topic fully, or they should not.

This particular Jew is critical of Hamas, and in respect of Israeli use of force in Gaza, fully in support of the Israeli government. Why do you assume that a Jew must either condemn both sides or stay silent? And why is it only Jews who must condemn both sides?

Its a ‘legitimate’ vehicle for antisemitism

The absolute irony of this graphic when it excludes the 70% ish of Mandatory Palestine that became the Palestinian Arab state of Jordan.
Not to mention the extremist tone of the rest of it.
I'm shocked that this is University material.

I don’t agree at all with the destruction of Gaza but I do feel alot of the rhetoric is motivated by anti Semitism. The catalyst for this was the kidnapping, murder and sexual assault of wholly innocent people by terrorists. All of that has been forgotten. The people caught up in this horrific conflict are innocent but the organisation behind it knew and know exactly what they are doing in whipping up anti Israeli feeling internationally. I would like to have seen the same protestors and celebrities express the same level of outrage about the events of 7/10.
I am not Jewish btw but don’t feel other foreign nationals are called to account for the foreign policies of their governments in the same way as everyday Israelis are.

Ok, when I said before that people blaming Israel for inhumanity are like people looking only at the actions of allies in WW2 and wiping Germany's actions out of the equation, and then feeling good about themselves for calling out the Allies inhumanity, well this post is a text book example of that mentality.

Firstly, lets not forget that Israel did not want this war. This poster is correct that Oct 7th was a slaughter but utterly wrong that what followed was. According to Hamas's own figures around 75000 people have died since the war ( they record all people who died, not those who died due to the war), so about one fifth would have died anyway, and a significant proportion are combatants, though the precise figure is obviously disputed by both sides. Hamas have made no effort to protect their citizens whereas Israel have sought to protect Gazan citizens by making substantial effort to forewarn of attacks ( such as by text and overhead leafleting), have enabled food aid and polio vaccination of children. 60000 dead of a population of 2.1 million, when this figure includes combatants and with an enemy who not only did NOTHING to protect their population even though they had hundreds of miles to shelter their own civilians in, can not in any sanity be called a slaughter.

And you need to also look at how Israel has been responding to Hamas actions throughout, such as Hamas using the ceasefire to place tens of thousands of explosive devices in the buildings in Rafah. That is why Rafah was destroyed.

Yet despite the sadism of Hamas on October 7th, despite them openly talking about how they need the deaths of their own civilians and then living that by not protecting their own civilians even though they easily can, despite the very demonstrable efforts Israel has made to protect gazan civilian life (and no effort by Hamas) resulting in a low death count especially for an urban war which will inevitably have civilian deaths, despite all this you label Israel as the immoral country, not Hamas or Palestine. The fact that evil people lose, does not mean they are not evil, and does not mean they were not the aggressors who started a conflict. Your narrative is a masterpiece of wiping the action of one side out of your story to portray the other as wrong.

Israel is trying to destroy the terrorist actors who want to commit a genuine genocide against it. October 7th showed how evil and how determined those against Israel are. The attack was sadistic, they mutilated, tortured, raped, murdered babies, children, elderly, women and men, they laughed whilst they did it (literally, you can hear the laughter on recordings and the repeated testimony of survivors if of the laughter of Hamas) and when they returned with bodies and hostages ( who they starved, tortured and physically and sexually abused and murdered some) they were greeted with celebrating, cheering crowds. And then they promised to do this again and again. No country, other than Israel, would be expected to live with such a threat on their doorstep. No country other than Israel would be condemned for seeking to eliminate such a threat to their citizens and existence. No country other than Israel is expected to live with the constant threat of enemies with genuinely genocidal intent against them and who are working to carry that out one day.

And that, is a nutshell is why the conflict in the ME carries on. Its because the Palestinians and their allies want there not to be a Israeli state more than they want a Palestinian state.

Palestinians have repeatedly refused the offer of a state of their own. Israel removed all its citizens from Gaza in 2005 and Gazans elected Hamas who became a dictatorship, who used the huge amounts of international money not to build Gaza to a peaceful city state who proved they could live alongside Israel, but used the money to prepare to attack Israel.

The fact that the actions of Israel means that Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iran and Qatar have not yet succeeded in their goal of genocidal destruction of Israel does not make Hamas et al the victims of Israel.

There will only be peace in the ME when Palestinians want a state more than they want there not to be an Israeli state. And there is no sign of them wanting that.

Anyway, I have spent too long on this and have to get on with my day.

You didn't say anything in your post about the Jewish community coming out against the atrocities committed by Hamas, merely about them not commenting on the actions of the Israeli government. My observation that expecting Jews to comment on the actions of the Israeli government is antisemitic is true, isn't it?

However, if the Jewish community chooses to comment on one side of the conflict, it looks odd not to also comment on the other.

Jews being horrified and devastated at Jews being murdered or taken hostage by a terrorist organisation, some of whom they may have known or been related to is personal, yes? I'm not sure why that means that they have to comment on the other side in a foreign conflict to not look odd. That's just performative, right?

People should either comment on this topic fully, or they should not.

You don't seem to be extending this requirement to the marchers? I mean, apparently you can't even expect them to not march alongside blatant antisemites, let along hold up a 'free the hostages' banner to not look odd.

The Just Stop Oil people, and Extinction Rebellion have moved onto Gaza.

The co-founder of Palestine Action was big in Extinction Rebellion (he was one of the protesters who stood on the roof of a Docklands light railway train).

If people are so horrified, why don’t they try and learn more about that very complex conflict?

They see Gaza being flattened and the civilians suffering, but what about the extensive tunnel network Hamas built underneath it, which they’re not letting their civilians use as bomb shelters?

What’s their opinion on Hamas embedding themselves amongst the civilian population? Especially after launching a massive terror attack on Israel, which they knew full well would lead to retaliation?

What’s the point in having a one-sided view that ignores the history of attacks, rocket fire, threats and complex security challenges that Israel faces, as well as Hamas’ stated goal to destroy it?

Final comment.

No, the majority on both sides do not want peace. The antizionist movement in the West if very clear on this. They want the destruction of Israel. So are the Palestinians. Their words and actions for decades have consistently shown this.

Palestinians want the destruction of Israel more than they want peace through a two state solution. All their worlds and actions point to this.

Even just watching the Ask project, this comes through. Ask Palestinians if they want peace ' Yes' they reply. Ask them if they want peace with Israel ' No', they reply, 'never peace with Israel, that is our land.'

The Palestinians are a block to peace, not Israel, as they will not accept the existence of Israel. For there to be peace, that has to change.

As a non-Jew, I find it absolutely sick and perverse that these deranged morons insist Jews should condemn the actions of the only country in the world which is defending them and in which they are not persecuted for being Jews.

They actively want Jews to not be able defend themselves, they don't even think they have a right to. The only acceptable Jews are those who are literally suicidal!

I have to say having researched this war from a factual, military and legal standpoint, Israel has achieved an amazing feat in keeping casualties so low in an unprecedented high density urban/subterranean warzone where civilians are used as human sacrifices and even NGO's supposedly working in their interests side with the terrorists, and refugees were not allowed to leave as the international community deemed it better they die for the cause of annihilating an ally (notwithstanding mistakes will have been made as in any war), and if it wasn't the world's only Jewish State, the IDF would be feted globally as the most amazing military in the world.

No Jew should be condemning the sacrifice of the brave men and women of the IDF in defending them. That is absolute insanity.

Having known almost nothing about Israel prior to this war, I am in awe of it's success, especially as it was driven by deeply traumatised Holocaust survivors while constantly being under attack from Arab Armies/Islamic regimes and even having a whole group of people created and weaponised to try to bring about it's destruction.

It is quite extraordinary and a real life miracle IMO.

Britain has gone soft. It's a long time since it has sent the majority of its sons and daughters off to war, uncertain if they'll come back. Britain has participated in wars overseas, but we have a professional army, and for all those people who say they've never met a British Jew, there are three times as many Jews in the UK than members of the armed forces.

To be fair, it's a good thing that this country doesn't know war - I'm not complaining about it, but it's a luxury, and we need to acknowledge that. That means people's perspective on conflict in the Middle East is very different from that of people who are in the middle of it. Did you know it's barely 50 miles from Gaza to Tel Aviv? How would you feel if a terrorist government was established in Brighton, 50 miles from London?

We Jews tried the passive don't make a fuss thing over the last few centuries. It didn't work out well, in Europe, in mandate Palestine, or for the Jews living in Arab countries. Until we decided no longer to be passive. We now have a cadre of Jews who will stand up for ourselves, who have weapons and who won't be pushed around. That's a very recent thing. Only the last 80 years of 5000 years of history. It's going pretty well, I'd say.

There are 46 muslim-majority nation states in the world. 23 have Islam as the official religion. 13 other countries have a version of Christianity as their official state religion.
The number of states with a Jewish majority, and the number of states where Judaism is the official religion, is one. Explain to me again why that number should be zero, please.

Jewish society has a lot to offer the world. For example, do you recognize we invented the weekend? Either way, the world is free to engage with us, or not. We Jews do not feel obliged to accept other people's advice on how to engage with neighbouring states and societies, especially those who want to kill us.

Exactly. Phrasing it as 'trying to fight back' just reinforces the 'David against Goliath' or 'kids throwing rocks at tanks' narrative that so many people cling to.

You would think the brutal reality and scale of October 7th would have made people realise the conflict is much more complex and nuanced, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

As I said, your observation that expecting Jews to comment on the actions of Israel is anti-Semitic is correct. However, I have no expectation that they should. I just find it odd that they comment on one side's actions but not the other. You don't, which is a source of disagreement between us, but I do indeed still find it odd that anyone can condemn one side but not the other in this. I don't think it would be performative at all. I think both sides deserve legitimate criticism. That applies as much to marchers as it does to the members of the pro-Israeli community who choose to comment.

Silence does not equal complicity, but at the same time it would be helpful if people on both sides criticised their own side a bit more to avoid allegations of complicity.

Are you saying both are lying? We don’t put out press releases every time a terrorist is arrested about how that information was come by.

Misinformation implies that I am actively lying and that they are lying. I also checked, there are references in hansard about the importance of Israeli security co-operation, feel free to check yourself.

Saying that it's odd if they don't comment on the actions of the Israeli government means that you think that they should.

The families and friends of the victims of a horrendous massacre and taking of hostages are precisely the group of people who should not be expected to see things with a clear-eyed objectivity and impartiality. For obvious reasons.

but I do indeed still find it odd that anyone can condemn one side but not the other in this

Yet you defend the marchers and call out Jews. Why do your instincts lean that way?

How on earth did I conclude that skin tone was a "major factor"? You're jumping to your own conclusions there.

I said that the many Muslims flying Palestine flags and the Brit/England flags being flown in retaliation, caused a big furore and thus drew a lot of attention to the conflict, which, prior to flag-gate, many had little knowledge of. Even that, I do not think is a major factor, but a significant factor in my area, nonetheless. I added that no one seemed upset when Ukraine flags were flown (an additional thought).

Hope that helps.

Oh and we also had the spectacle of an idiot Labour MP suggesting we declare war on Israel

Not Russia, not Iran who have both committed terror attacks on our soil, Israel. Completely demented.

For which British interest would we have gone to war for? Israel have not attacked us, they have not directly intervened with our interests, they have actively helped us. And yet dumdum wanted to declare war. Truly we have some extremely stupid people in parliament.

I can’t wait for this shit to be over.

I don't agree that saying it's odd for Jews to comment on one side of the conflict but not the other is the same as saying that they should comment on the actions of the Israeli government per se. The latter suggestion is anti-Semitic. If the former were also to be viewed as anti-Semitic then the flip side of that same coin would be to say that it was OK for people to comment on Israel's behaviour but not Hamas' behaviour, which I presume we both think is.wrong. It does strike me as odd that people with very strident views on one side have no view on the other.

This is the difficulty people have in debating this topic. A Jewish person (rightly) condemns Hamas. But if asked for a view on the behaviour of the other side the response is 'Even asking for my view is anti-Semitic'.

I don't think I do defend the marchers and call out Jews (I say again, I am.a Jew myself). I defined moderates and call out extremists and those who only mention bad actors on the.opposing side.

Quote " We don’t put out press releases every time a terrorist is arrested about how that information was come by."

What happens then when a terror plot is foiled? A plot that will kill lots of brits. Are you saying the UK bundles the plotters off to jail without trial, and with no news at all ?

On the other hand, there are people in the Israeli Government that are, can we say, known for tall tales.

Hansard. Yes, something was said in the house. That is not evidence of plots.

How does a podcast by Nadia Sawalha and her husband provide ‘all you need to know’ about the Israel-Gaza conflict? Do you think they are experts? Unbiased?

And what exactly do you mean by ‘this world is broken’, does Nadia explain that one too?

You can’t prove what you’re saying. It’s misinformation but idk why you’d push it. Is it just because it’s Israel?