Why Gaza?

[Mixymaxymoxy]

There are several atrocities happening in the world that could be described as genocides. Sudan, DCR, Rohingya in Myanmar, Yazidi in Iraq,

why has the Gaza / Palestinian cause motivated young people in the west more than any of the above ?

if you are a protester, how do to decide which cause to protest about ? If your children are protesting, why do you think they chose this one ?

I’m 54 and was not politically active when I was younger. I’m seeing the protests in France and elsewhere and wondering why Gaza so much part of the protests?

So all the other well respected international and Israeli human rights organisations who say it is a genocide? The governments condemning a genocide?

Oh and the published policy and comments of Israeli ministers of state saying genocidal things? All to be ignored?

I'm not sure any of the other places have people going on TV from the government or rebel forces and having a fun time saying genocidal things? Talking about killing the children or people being "animals".

In groups of people concerned about Gaza though; many other places and concerns sit..climate concerns, resource wars, data centres, ethical purchases, taxes and corporations etc etc.. ...unlike those defending mass death and destruction

As others already mentioned, the International Association of Genocide Scholars is basically a club anyone can join for a yearly fee.

People keep quoting it on here, presumably because of its important-sounding name, but their own website states that the membership is not restricted to traditional academics.

Their members include artists, activists, teachers, students, journalists, amongst others.

In what other complex conflict would you choose to accept the verdict of a group of laymen?

As for the ICC, it hasn’t reached a conclusion yet.

I get. But I also get that it's hard, hence the Jewish community not coming out hard against the obvious outrages committed by the Israeli government and settlers. I think it is fair to say that there are extremists in both sides but that the majority on all sides want peace.

Noted Scholars Who Have Characterized Gaza as Genocide

• Omer Bartov: A prominent historian of the Holocaust and genocide at Brown University, Bartov raised early concerns about genocidal intent among Israeli leadership and authored the 2026 book Israel: What Went Wrong? examining the transformation of Zionism and the crisis in Gaza.
• Amos Goldberg: A professor of Holocaust history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Goldberg has argued that Israel's actions in Gaza exhibit all the elements of genocide, pointing to explicit statements from high-ranking officials, widespread dehumanization, and severe destruction.
• Raz Segal: An Israeli historian and associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University, Segal has described the assault on Gaza as a "textbook case of genocide" in early public analyses following October 2023.
• Martin Shaw: A leading sociological theorist of genocide, Shaw has written extensively—including in The New Age of Genocide—defending and applying the genocide framework to the devastation and Western complicity in Gaza.
• Daniel Blatman: An Israeli historian of the Holocaust at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem who has supported assessments that the military campaign in Gaza crosses the threshold into genocide.
• Francesca Albanese: A legal scholar and the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories, who concluded in UNHRC reports that there are reasonable grounds to believe Israel is committing acts of genocide in Gaza

There is no obligation on the Jewish community to say anything about the conduct of Israel and it is antisemitic to suggest that they should.

@TIDMum - you are correct, I was being hyperbolic about the UK funding Israel (that's US and Germany), and the arms exports are small, but to me that's all the more reason to stop them as we can afford to. I'm not above being corrected. But Israel is still an ally and we should have influence in them in a way we wouldn't with Russia, or Sudan etc.

I have been to Palestine protests as part of the Jewish bloc and I have seen placards calling for peace on all sides there.

@Darkermornings - where did I saw Israel can't defend itself? What should it have done? I don't know, I'm not a military strategist, but I know what lines morally they shouldn not have crossed.

This is not, as I often hear it referred to in synagogue 'a war' - it was one slaughter (October 7th) followed by a much bigger, longer slaughter. If they wanted revenge a month of that sort of bombardment would have been enough, hell, a week would have been enough. But this is an unending massacre (because they're still bombing parts of Gaza). Gaza is in ruins, flattened. 'Protecting Palestinians'? Seriously?

Israel is very much still standing. Anyone with eyes can see that. I know there have been asymmetric conflicts before but this takes the cake.

Israel didn't have to limit food to rations barely enough to sustain life, they could have acted with far more precision and intelligence (which they have access to plenty of) to strike Hamas leaders and try to locate hostages. Israeli activists from Standing Together (and have heard this from them directly) are still having to create cordons around the aid deliveries that are permitted because Israeli protestors, who are not stopped by the police or IDF, try to prevent them getting into Gaza.

I have an awful feeling Netanyahu's plan (which likely will be carried on by whoever is elected next) is to keep the area unlivable until they can go 'Gosh, there's no one is Gaza and hasn't been for ages, so they've forfeited ownership' Basically an industrial-scale version of what they are doing in the West Bank - a rabbi friend has recently returned from the West Bank where he was helping a Palestinian man maintain the land that the authorities are trying to harrass him away from so they can claim it as 'unmaintained' under the law. Again, I have heard this directly, from a Jewish person. This is not biased, antisemitic media. This stuff is real.

People now feel about Israel as they felt about South Africa in the 1980s, basically. That it is a 'morally wrong country' - I don't believe it has to be, but Netanyahu has made it so. I totally understand that Jewish people's gut reaction is to defend Israel because if we don't, no one will, but I think actually the best way for us to defend Israel is to call it to account like any other country ought to be. That not all countries are called to account is not a reason not to do it to Israel, personally I want better of a country that is supposed to, on some level, represent me. But it's worth remembering South Africa changed and survived. Germany wasn't 'cancelled' as a country after WWII. Many people were convinced there would be 'a massacre' if South Africa passed into majority black control, and that did not happen. So there are some seeds of hope, I suppose.

I do understand where you are coming from. A lot of what you say is true. But I think it is also true to say that true presence of extremist elements on both sides makes it difficult for the majority of moderate voices to be considered or heard.
This is the problem with ethno-nationalism. It is very hard to separate the ethnicity bot from the nationalist bit, so a criticism of an country's government can be misconstrued as a criticism of the ethnicity of those who support the existence of that nation. There are some people who deliberately misconstrue the view of others, or deliberately mask their own views, to take advantage of this. But I honestly think that the majority are just trying to do the right thing and navigate a really complex situation from an overwhelming perspective of humanitarianism. Sometimes people misjudge the balance, but it is not helped by those looking to take umbrage easier than perhaps is called for.

Your stance rests are assumptions that the accusations against the Israeli government are rationale, evidence based and legitimate.

But this is not what we are seeing from the antizionist movement. What we are seeing are accusations of genocide and ‘baby killers’. What we are seeing g is delegitimization of the Israeli state, dehumanization of Israelis and double standards where the Israeli government is held to standards no other government would be held to.

I am tired of people pretending not to see how the antizionist movement is operating or doing, so that they can claim they are ‘legitimate critics’ and therefore not antisemitic.

British snd western Jews are literally being murdered by terrorists fired up by the lies spread by the antizionist movement. The whole point of the genocide and baby killer libel is that it justifies any harm being caused to the group accused of it. Just as the ‘race polluter’ and ‘ Christ killer’ libels justified any harm being caused to Jews.

All hate movements are formed of people thinking they are acting as good people. Thinking you are good is not enough. You have to critically interrogate the claims your belief is formed on. The baby killer libel presents a double standard ‘( no other army is accused of this, let alone a defending army) , it dehumanising Jews ( it’s not just Israelis being murdered due to this libel) and it is used to delegitimize the existence of Israel.

Btw, Israel has been accused of genocide since its inception and tthe population and has grown all that time. . This latest war of Hanas, hezbollah , Houthi's, iran and Qatar against Istarl is just the latest round of accusations of genocide ( which alsi shows you how bogus it is.). the genocide accusation is to delegitimize the existence of Israel. The creators of this lie believe Israel only exists due to the holocaust. therefore if they can shift the narrative away from Jews being victims of a genocide to its perpetuators then they can delegirimise Israel, remove international support and destroy it.

So no, this movement is not one of legitimate criticism.

Same for me as well. The closest I've come to anything Jewish was studying the Holocaust in my "O" levels. And you do sort of wonder if we are now living through another one.

Again, you position is based on an erroneous claim that this is a movement based on legitimate criticism of a government. It is not. It is based on dehumanising lies and libels to delegitimize an entire nation. These are not extremist elements. These dehumanising libels are the central core claims this movement is based around, and which it is desperately holding onto against all counter evidence. It is also based on ignoring the terrorism, both fatal and social, being carried out against western Jews due to their libels. Again, not the extremists in this movement, but the core of the movement based on the core libels this movement is based around.

The women who sing about genocide and apartheid outside Barclays every weekend probably don’t consider themselves extreme but they are spreading libels that lead to murder and terrorism in the West against a minority ethnic group ( Jews) and their actions are calling for a nation state ( Israel) to be unable to defend itself against a coalition of genuinely genocidal ME players who wish to destroy it. They know their libels are leading to terrorism and they carry on. They are part of an extremist hate movement.

Although I appreciate you are trying to frame yourself as a moderate, I don’t regard trying to ignore what is actually happening in a movement as a moderate position.

How come the victims in that particular conflict have been able to ‘live stream the horror as it was happening’, unlike victims of other conflicts?

The idea that social media is 'raw and uncurated' is somewhat naïve. Algorithms actively feed users content that drives maximum emotional outrage.

On top of that, independent fact-checkers have repeatedly proven that a significant amount of the online context is manipulated or entirely manufactured, like recycled footage from completely different wars and AI-generated imagery.

Well you did mention Tommy Robinson, English, and Raise the Flags throughout, and concluded that skin colour was a major factor, so not sure how that’s a ‘small additional thought.’

Why is 'legitimate criticism of the Israeli government' widened to hate anyone who thinks that Israel should exist as a Jewish state? Why is it all about Zionists, where Zionist is also a longstanding codeword for Jew?

Why do people think people who bang on about Zionists are merely legitimate critics of the Israeli government?

What other countries are people demonised for thinking they have a right to even exist as a country?

I don't see how people can possibly fail to spot that Israel, the world's only Jewish state is being singled out for special treatment here.

What's curious is that the horrific events of October 7th, which were live-streamed by Hamas themselves, have not had the same impact.

I am reminded of Greta Thunberg refusing to watch the videos, yet I imagine she has seen plenty of ones of Gaza.

Remember that when the current Israeli government falls and everyone rushes to distance themselves from its acts and blames one person .

Is it? For 16/18 year olds? How much exposure do they have to antisemitism? I tend to think of it as an older persons ‘ism’ of you know what I mean 🤷‍♀️

This is really interesting, and it’s this age group that I’m interested in - partly because during the lycée protests here in France every second protestor is waving a Palestinian flag. I guess it could be because they are Muslim, but I don’t think it’s that - my kids school is majority white, but they are still waving the flags.

i wonder, if young people weren’t waving Palestine flags, what would they wave?

I don't think the demographic of the Green Party who just voted to eradicate Israel is particularly old.

Are you joking? As a child I was in receipt of several episodes of antisemitic abuse from other children.

You cannot possibly be naive enough to think that racism is confined to adults.

To people who say they want are antithetical to Israel because it “claims” to be an ally, or democratic, or espouse western ideals or other nonsense. Here’s a s thought experiment for you: suppose it decided (somehow) to become a dictatorship, align its human rights outlook with other Middle East countries and turn its back on the UK entirely. Would you now drop your opposition, and support it in the same way as you support Saudi, Syria or Egypt? You would not.

I'm afraid I fundamentally disagree. Yes there are the elements you describe, but the overwhelming majority of protesters abhor them. Perhaps it is not possible to stop extremist elements capitalising on legitimate protest. That is not a reason to stop the protests.

That’s not the case. There’s a lot online where young people look at it and you can see the outcomes of that. Remember the chanting university guy?

It's certainly a reason to stop attending them. But your assertion that the overwhelming majority of protestors abhor them is extraordinary given that they do literally nothing about them and continue to march alongside them.

The first antisemitic incident at my child’s school was when she was 9. Another child told her his family wants her family to die. This predates the current war.

she is 13 now so was 10 when this war was started by Hamas. From the day after it she had several issues at various points at school. By children her own age.

16-18 year olds are practically adults. They can vote here in Scotland. They are certainly capable of going on social media and reading the news and having various viewpoints. It’s really confusing that you’re insisting they are somehow incapable?

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they could have acted with far more precision and intelligence (which they have access to plenty of) to strike Hamas leaders and try to locate hostages

Those Jews are so clever, it was all a trick, no?

Can you not see the antisemitic blood libel dripping out of your own post?

The worst crime a Jew can commit in the eyes of the world, and in the eyes of some other a Jews, is to win.

personally I want better of a country that is supposed to, on some level, represent me.

You are hereby absolved of your guilt for the actions of your fellow Jews. We will do just fine without you. Go in peace.