Why Gaza?

[Mixymaxymoxy]

There are several atrocities happening in the world that could be described as genocides. Sudan, DCR, Rohingya in Myanmar, Yazidi in Iraq,

why has the Gaza / Palestinian cause motivated young people in the west more than any of the above ?

if you are a protester, how do to decide which cause to protest about ? If your children are protesting, why do you think they chose this one ?

I’m 54 and was not politically active when I was younger. I’m seeing the protests in France and elsewhere and wondering why Gaza so much part of the protests?

You can absorb anti-Semitic narratives without considering yourself to be anti-Semitic. The genocide lie is our age’s libel against Jews.

There very clearly is no genocide. That is a legal term and intent is needed. So if you have the capability to destroy a people but you don’t as you lack the intent ( as Israel in Gaza) it is not a genocide. However, if you have the intent to destroy a people but lack the capability ( such as Hamas’s actions on Oct 7th, Hamas are very clear they want to destroy Israel and Israelis) it can still be genocidal action.

Even by the information easily available of the mainstream news, it’s clear it’s not a genocide in Gaza. The forewarning by Israelites of attacks ( so if Hamas had let it’s civilians into it’s hundreds of miles of tunnels they would have lived) , the polio vaccinations of children, facilitating food aid, the ceasefire and humanitarian convey to allow Palestinians to return, the tiny percentage of civilians killed compared to the total population ( of over two million) even the small percentage of civilians compared to % of buildings destroyed shows how much work Israel put into preserving civilian life, which is a huge acheivement when the Hamas government put none in.

So yes, hate movements get populations to absorb their hate by repeating a lie ad nauseum. So the genocide lie is repeated over and be because people hear it so much they believe it must be true. So people don’t realise they are attached to a hate movement as they think what they believe about this group of people is just true.

And yes, it’s easier to dehumanize a people you don’t know than a people you do.

Why such an obsession with the world's only Jewish state which was created in the aftermath of a serious attempt to exterminate the Jews? The Jews who have a long history of being persecuted? The Jews who even the English, expelled from our country for over 300 years?

I mean, look at this Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews

Are you absolutely sure there's no antisemitism involved in an obsession with eradicating a Jewish state? It's just because they "look white"? And there's no denying the ultimate aim is to eradicate Israel.

Please give the you tube channel ‘coffee moaning’ a watch. You find all you need to know on there. Fantastic independent news slot every day around 11. This world is broken.

I'm not sure we are losing the PR battle so badly. Given the outrageous behaviour of the Israeli government it's fairly miraculous that we still call them our friends at all. Yes there is a lot of anti-Israel protest but by rights there should be lots more.

I can’t speak for everyone but I suppose I just feel more complicit in this that I do in other atrocities. There’s an Israeli owned arms factory in my city (my grandma actually used to work there many many years ago) and I hate the fact that weapons made in my city are going directly to kill children in Gaza. I think it’s a stain on my local area tbh. I’ve also given money to corporations that have made donations to the IDF before I became a bit more thoughtful about where I’m spending my money - I slip up sometimes though and still do give my money to places that I think are unethical but it’s all a learning curve. And most importantly to me my taxes help fund British arms exports some of which will go to Isreal. And there’s also general British involvement with the Balfour declaration and the mandate period etc.

You are correct in what you say though, there are atrocities being committed all over the world and I think in the west we’re so used to convenience and being removed from it all that we should be motivated to look what more we can do. I tend to rely on boycotts not because I think nestle/zara/dominoes pizza will miss my shitty bit of money but because I work hard for it and I don’t want it to contribute to making the world worse. But actually we saw during the South African apartheid that money speaks louder than most things and if enough people band together and a company is losing money they find it much easier to discover their morals.

I think anyone saying they aren’t antisemititic because they don’t know any Jews probably just wouldn’t know they are. I am often the first Jewish person people have met (I live in Scotland) and am very conscious of the need to represent well as whatever I do will colour how they think of Jews forever.

My family is the only Jewish family in our area so my children have always been the only Jewish children in their schools. Just because their schools both had a 0% issue with antisemitism before is pretty irrelevant. It’s certainly not 0% now. I can only hope you’d be horrified to see what would happen if my family picked up and moved to your neighbourhood.

I don't really know anything about all those other conflicts going on around the world, but I know about Gaza. Also, my friends are heavily invested in humanitarian causes for the people of Palestine and it is a common topic at the dinner table, I want to be as informed on the matter as possible. We should all care regardless.

Of course there are people who want to wipe out Israel. The Green party, for example. There are also people who want to wipe out Palestine. Ben Gvir and Smotrich, for example.

I don't think the media coverage or majority of the protesters are in the 'wipe out Israel's camp though.

Anyone can join the genocide scholars. It’s a made up term to try to give authority to something with none. In the same way there was pseudo science and race scientists and lots of clever, authoritative people believed in ‘race science’ and ‘eugenics’ in the early twentieth century. These racist theories were respectable once.

The human rights organisations and NGOs are now hugely politicized organisations who are firmly signed up to all the thinking of the political left, and anti-Israel/ antizionist thinking is part of that. There is enormous group think in that world.

You really need to look into this for yourself. The evidence really doesn’t in any way fit the claims they make.

@TIDMum yes, when it’s reported in the media. But I generally just watch/read BBC news, so if it’s not on there, I won’t know about it.

AntiZionism originates in the Soviet Union so it’s always been a lefty thing, so it got a head start there. Because of this it’s always been mixed in with anti-capitalism, anti-westernism so it’s found a naturally home in the modern progressive left and its simplistic oppressor-oppressed anti-western narrative. Add in millennia old anti-Semitism ( Jews seem to suffer from being successful enough to notice but so tiny in number most people don’t know any Jewish people, so they are easy to dehumanize) and you have a perfect storm for the our age’s hate movement : antiZionism.

The 'Zionism is racism' vote in the Green Party is clearly designed as a Far Left/Islamist takeover of a political party. It will do nothing in Palestine. Our government has no influence over Israel, so the Green Party of England and Wales have even less of a chance. Their intent is to drive out the ' old' Greens, Jewish Greens who do not support them and anyone who disagrees with them. After the collapse of Your Party and the failure of the Islamic Party to be registered as a political party they have found a weak point and useful puppet in an established political party. They were stupid to even bother trying to take over Labour but it has been far easier to take over the Greens. Nothing to do with Palestine and everything to do with a Trotskyist/IslamoLeft takeover of a political party.

Your post demonstrates that Israel is losing the PR battle.

A lot of posters have already addressed the issues, but I think a good place to start is learning about the Muslim Brotherhood, and what happened in Iran in the 70s, the Islamic uprising was only possible because the Muslim Brotherhood had the support of the lefties , the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated them , funded them , and used them to spread propaganda.

Its exactly what is happening here with the protests, the infiltration and spreading of propaganda to student other typical leftie groups, look at the Green party .

When you say, quote " Even by the information easily available of the mainstream news, it’s clear it’s not a genocide in Gaza. ", I suppose it depends on what news you watch.

This UN commission report was in the news I recall.

Israel has committed genocide in the Gaza Strip, UN Commission finds | OHCHR

For sure, you can dispute the UN report etc, but I don't think you can say "it’s clear it’s not a genocide in Gaza" with 100 % confidence that it is true.

From that linked site -

"“The Commission finds that Israel is responsible for the commission of genocide in Gaza,” said Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission. “It is clear that there is an intent to destroy the Palestinians in Gaza through acts that meet the criteria set forth in the Genocide Convention.”"

And you can also argue that the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is too broad, But good luck getting that changed.

Why are people who don't want to wipe out Israel marching alongside people who do want to wipe out Israel and who chant support for the wiping out of Israel (From the river to the sea), or attacks on Jews (globalise the intifada) or who cheer on actively antisemitic terrorist groups (Yemen Yemen make us proud, turn another ship around - with Yemen being the Houthis whose slogan includes 'Death to Israel and a curse upon Jews'), or who even chant support for the October 7th massacre (resistance is justified when you're occupied)?

I mean, it's pretty indefensible, don't you think? I don't know why people were so shocked when the Greens voted that motion through when the exact same sort of rhetoric has been openly chanted on the streets of England for years. People have tried to pretend that that's not what it really meant, but now the Greens have made that difficult to deny.

Pro-palestinian protests were promoted in my teenager's 6th form. There was a lot about it on social media, in school some students started arranging going to protests. It was seen as if you are people loving, kind, compassionate person, you care about children dying in Gaza. There was at least 1 protest during school day and 'nearly everyone' went, they just skipped school. They planned whole day out of it, having fun.
Teachers knew about it beforehand and told students not to skip school.
My teenager asked me at the time what I think about Gaza and I told her:
I am sure people who professionally studied the region find it very complex and difficult. Conflict there went on for long before you've been born.
I never lived or knew personally anyone who lived there.
I am not gonna say anything to you about it.
What do you know about it?
I told her to go for a right reason if she is going.
She didn't go to the protest and only her and I think one another person turned up to the school.

Main point was being a part of it. Whatever that 'it' was.

@Mixymaxymoxy , 100% this! ☝🏻

Fuck me. Losing my patience with this one. So if you are subject to a deliberately sadistic attack, an attack your attacker says they will commit against you again and again, you should not fight back if you are able to win against your sadistic attacker?

This is insane. Nothing lays bare the insane, irrational hatred against Israel like this post.

Israel has made huge effforts to preserve civilian life. Hamas has made none, either to preserve Israeli life ( which they deliberately sought out in their own homes to terrorize and kill face to face) , and which they have continued to launch rockets against since Oct 7th, and Hamas have NOT made efforts to protect their own civilians, but have deliberately placed them in deadly danger and stolen food aid, yet Israel is the bad guy for winning against Hamas?

Utterly insane thinking.

It doesn't. It demonstrates that there is sometimes some publicity that doesn't reflect well on Israel.

@Darkermornings disliking what a government is choosing to do doesn’t equate to prejudice against an ethnic group.

It’s generally accepted in the UK that what the Afghanistan government are doing is awful, but we’re not all assumed to be Islamophobic. Many of us think Trump’s actions are insane, but we’re not accused of prejudice against Americans because of our views. So why is criticism of the actions of the Israeli government attributed to antisemitism? Are we not allowed to have opinions without being accused of discrimination?

The question I want to ask is why are there no real efforts towards a genuine peace and a two-state solution.

Jewish people deserve to live in peace, wellbeing and safety. Palestinian people deserve to live in peace, wellbeing and safety.

Not supporting the expansionist tendencies of Zionism does not mean that you are antisemitic. Disagreeing with the murderous destruction within Gaza does not mean that you support the actions of Hamas.

This issue, thousands of miles away, dominates the UK political discourse far too much and frankly I am fed up with it being centred during UK political conferences and parliamentary elections when the education, health, economic, policing and legal systems right here are far from perfect.

The international community needs to put all its efforts into resolving this nightmare, using the learning from situations such as Northern Ireland and South Africa, so that we can actually get on with solving some of the genuinely pressing problems of the world (Energy? Climate change? Russia?), especially those problems occurring within our own country.

I expect you were surprised when the Greens voted to eradicate Israel as a country?

Obviously the chanting etc is wrong, and indefensible. But I honestly don't think that everyone on the marches (or even a large proportion) know what the chants mean, agree with them or want to wipe out Israel.

Are there anti-Semites masking their anti-Semitism as anti-Zionism? Yes.

Are there anti-Zionists who aren't anti-Semitic at all? Yes.

Are there lots of people who see evidence of awful suffering of Palestinians and who cares about that more than Jews or Israel? Yes.

Are some pro-Gaza protesters ignorant of the view of the other side? Yes.

Are some pro-Israel protesters ignorant of the view of the other side? Yes.

Do almost all people on the march want peace? Yes.

Are there extremists on both sides? Yes.

This is it.

Israel routinely states that it has the most moral army in the world. But we've seen the atrocities that they have committed.

They claim to share Western Values. They're in the bloody UN.

They're meant to hold themselves to certain standards, the ones we're expected to hold. But they're slaughtering and starving women and children, their government is encouraging ethnic cleansing in other parts of Palestine, as well as the ongoing genocide in Gaza.

And our government has been complicit.
That's why people are protesting. They want our government to do the right thing, and it's working.

The UK has recognised the state of Palestine and we've ceased trade with settlers in the West Bank. This is a result of pressure from the people who protest, petition and care.