Labour isn't Working - Thread 38

[Nuthatch26]

A chat thread for those who don't like this Labour government. 💙

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5554358-labour-isnt-working-thread-37?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

How has it got so bad? Is it because they know the criminal won't go to jail anyway, so there's no point?

Yes, it's seen as pointless, and an additional stress.

That's actually pretty dangerous though. One of the really important functions of the law is that people give up their own retribution because they can trust the law to do it for them. It will harm us all if that social deal breaks down.

I have no idea how the legalities of this would work, but we need a system that recognises where people are trying to move forward from their crimes, and one where recidivists or those that just won’t behave have their sentence increased. I know you can apply for parole now, only is that becoming largely meaningless as next to nobody is doing more than half a sentence.
I’ve come to the conclusion, from watching documentaries on life inside a prison, that the prison system is just not effective. Many consider a relatively short term inside as a chance to forge new connections and continue on the very same way on release, such as drug dealing. At least the South American one where they spent all day on racked beds did seem to provide some harsh lesson!
But would the threat of death force some change of behaviour? I’m not sure as the often unrecognised mental health aspect behind many of the horrendous crimes lay unrecognised, and if they’re troublesome enough, they just get shunted to Broadmoor.
Not a very organised post as my brain is tired after a taxing weekend. But why are we continuing with this broken sentencing and prison system?

I was actually discussing this with my husband - I grew up in a country with a high crime rate, and in one way that was bad, but in another at least you could, and were allowed to mitigate it, so people pay for private security, malls, restaurants etc also have armed guards,, you're allowed to live in access-controlled gated estates, that kind of thing.

I loved the UK for not needing any of that, and being a safe, low-crime place where you could sleep soundly at night. But it's almost like it's creeping towards a more violent society now, but we're not allowed to actually put any mitigations in place, and it's a bit of a sitting duck feeling.

So the statistic is that 1% of the general population account for 63% of all serious crime convictions.

We've got a society where there are universal human rights, so they can't be effectively dealt with, ie locked up for life once it's clear that they are not redeemable - but I feel like it screws everyone else's rights to peaceful enjoyment of their entire lives.

Prison doesn’t really work for most who are sent there. Its deterrent purpose is to be sufficiently scary to deter those who are essentially law abiding but might be tempted into crime. For those who are inherently criminally minded, prisons are schools of crime.

We should keep people out if we think they’re not strongly criminally inclined, though there’s obviously a limit for minor repeat offenders.

But prison has a safeguarding role too: people in prison are kept away from the rest of us. That’s why I’d support more money for prisons so that we can have much longer sentences for those who are incorrigible or serious criminals, especially for crimes of violence. At the same time prisons need to provide training and distraction, otherwise you get containment problems.

Yes I’ve visited countries like that and I went to stay with a friend in one, she was the daughter of a diplomat and they lived in a fortress style house and they had two massive guard dogs that would rip your throat out if they thought you weren’t supposed to be there.

It's not ideal though really - I'd much rather live somewhere where it's not necessary of course.
The other issue there is that the law-abiding majority of the poor can't pay for the mitigations so they suffer horrendously.

Me too, I wouldn’t have wanted to have lived like that.

And I agree with you, poorer people suffer more from crime and IME they tend to be more hardline about it.

@Loopylalalou That prison in El Salvador (CECOT) is the end of the line for its inmates; they'll never be released to demonstrate whatever lessons they learn. Richard Madeley's documentary about it was chilling.

In Colorado they have ADX Florence in which prisoners are held in total solitary confinement with only a glimpse of natural light.

Those places are very brutal, but if the UK had anything like them they would be a more appropriate incarceration for the likes of the Stockport killer than the relative luxury of a secure hospital in leafy Berkshire.

It’s tricky isn’t it - there was a case local to me in the late 19thc where a young woman was hanged for murdering babies and toddlers she’d adopted. As late as the late 19th c in Scotland illegitimate babies were privately adopted rather than charity due to the stigma, and you scraped together whatever money you could to pay an adopter.

the woman, in her early 20s they now would say was mentally incapable, and, in an abusive relationshio with a man 30 years older who was the brains of the scheme…

I’ve had similar thoughts about Axel, I wouldn’t support the death penalty as it’s too problematic but it’s that whole time to kill scenario isn’t it? I can’t say what I’d feel if he met a grizzly end in prison, honestly.

The first comment when you filter by “recommended” says it all.

Ministers’ criminal records to remain secret, tribunal rules

www.thetimes.com/article/1e79abb7-2302-4c15-8ee7-3680404dc403?shareToken=0dbfbb2e4dfed60cb856db5eb4acec29

Lucy Powell vows to undo Gove’s ‘straitjacket’ school reforms | The Independent

In an odd way I actually agree with Lucy Powell just not in the way she would accept. I believe perhaps only about 70% of children should take GCSE's. I also believe around 40% of children should be in 'Selective' Education whether that be academically or through Sporting Music, Artistic or other specialist talents.

However, I find it 'Pathetic' that politicians that come from the Left actually want children to have less rigorous and academic education. Though, I suspect it because the less educated children are, the easier they are to brainwash. I think this was also a factor in the ideological destruction of Grammar Schools or Selective Education whether through the state or through the Independent sector. The left ideology here to state that someone who is chosen at 11 or 13 believes, there are better than someone not chosen hence this idea must be eradicated to enforce socialism and egalitarian principles.

The left's ideology here is to ensure those who believe they would be academically superior due to having the ability to pass a competitive exam at 11/13, be brought down to the common denominator of Comprehensive Schooling. This having the effect of ensuring no child can operate within their own peer group without being drawn to the problems of other peer groups. This is central to left wing propaganda, because it ensures no child is unaware of how 'Privileged' they are. This being the weapon the left use to enforce conversion to socialism within education !

I wasn't in the UK (or largely even born) but my understanding was that grammar schools were amazing for social mobility, for those who were bright or aspirational.
I think it's telling that Labour regard that notion with antipathy.

They are. Not every county has the option though. I would've easily gone to grammar school if we'd been a grammar county, but sadly they'd all been closed down.

It is true that Labour benefits from keeping a voter base of people who rely on the state economically, whether as state employees or welfare recipients.

But I suspect that these ‘proposals’ (scare quotes because nothing announced since Burnham’s coup amounts to a true proposal, just vague blather) are actually a sign of no ideas and no ambition.

There’s been a recent thread about - IIRC - Burnham’s likely time in office on which a poster made clear that what apprenticeship providers want most in trainees is decent maths and English. We should be boosting Gove’s changes for GCSE expectations, not trashing them. Labour is trying to build without foundations. This will fail.

I find it really sad that are dismantling curriculum reforms which demonstrably led to better educational attainment.

They're actually openly and proudly declaring that their aim is to make education less academic.

This Labour government really is very hard to live through.

I find it really sad that are dismantling curriculum reforms which demonstrably led to better educational attainment.

I agree. I hope they don’t give up on grammar completely - when my son tutored some young people in Spanish, he spent most of the lessons explaining parts of speech, which you need to know if you are going to study a foreign language b

Me too, I’ve got a language degree, and had to pretty much learn the principles of grammar purely to do the languages at school, because they didn’t really teach it in English lessons when I was at high school (90s). I’ve also tutored Spanish to English adult education students and taught EFL to foreign students both in the UK and abroad, both adults and children. I’m not really a teacher though so it was quite a challenge!

Both myself and dh went to grammar schools, I do think it ought to be possible with good school diversity to have both academic and quality alternatives in this day and age. It’s like a lot of modern education, the issues are around schools not offering diverse options and parents not being able to choose the best path for their kids,
rather than the only available path.

tbh I’m glad to see labour abandoning Phillip’s reforms but I’d love to see a re invigorated centre realise that we need more types
of schools and not huge secondaries where we pretend people can choose a non academic path without stigma.

I can accept that in the 1960s and early 70s and even into the 90s in parts of Kent for instance that many Secondary Modern Schools did not fulfil their adjectives. This, was down to in many cases to a muddled up idea of what they were supposed to be doing. However, I think the left used the inadequacies of Secondary Modern education for political objectives. This being the mainstream destruction of selective education which was the opening of the Socialist Agenda for which has now encompassed the total submersion of the UK in. The obsession of the left with Grammar Schools and CND between the 60s-80s enabling the starting bell for the advent of Fabianism and absolute Socialism through time.

In reality no Grammar School should or needed to be closed to have improved non selective educational provision for the majority 75% over the last sixty years. The stated aim of Tony Crossland to close every Grammar School was a selfish self- centred aim of virtue- signalling before the term existed. In hindsight what should have happened was a constructive and sensible approach firstly understanding that destruction of quality I.E Grammar Schools, does not improve education for those on the margins.

The view that those that thrive unfairly is an argument the left use to ridicule trickle down economics. The, left continue with the outdated notion that if somebody has the ability to earn a lot of money it is down to Privilege rather than hard work or talent. Therefore, such people must be cut down to size or the privilege they hold must be eradicated. This in order that nobody in the left's views has benefitted from the luck of genealogy or benefits from the generational hard work of previous family members !

@redange oh hello
I thought you had name changed

Yet more proof that I have really no idea who I'm talking to now!

I really hate how down we are on achievement as a whole in this country. And it's been going on for so long now I don't know if it can be corrected.

I'm pleased that Donald Trump has finally used the word bankrupt about the UK - all that anyone has used the word - though it won't help with people who just think it's a right wing conspiracy theory.

I've been doing various bits of economic research and much as I get annoyed when people say that Britain is a lazy country, I've got to stop getting annoyed haven't I? Because I'm actually starting to see what they mean.

Meanwhile, even people on here who were quite sensible seem to have gone a bit mad and think that taxing billionaires solves all the problems we have.

I don't know if it's the heat, but I've seen an awful lot of crazy on here the last couple of days and I haven't even been on that much

Couldn't agree more and we need more types of schools not less. .
The Sutton trust said years ago schools need to do more to help grammar potential but disadvanges students to pass.

We also must help DC who can't get phonics reading by different methods and tailor the phonics test.