Should we leave London after burnout, or stay for my husband's career?

[ChickenChitty]

Help me with my life dilemma.

DH and I have been together for 15 years, we are late 30s with 2 kids at primary school. I work in a stressful job in the City, requiring extremely long hours (60-70hr weeks, weekend work most weekends and most holidays too). DH is in a creative career - his passion. I earn c.6x what he does. He is self-employed so does more with the kids and more around the house (I’d say he does 60% of the childcare and maybe 70% of household tasks).

I nearly died earlier this year with a ruptured appendix that was missed and negligent medical care. It came off the back of a period of very intense work - about 9 months of hell. I’m mentally traumatised from that experience and burnt out generally, and the whole thing has made me reassess my life.

Ive suddenly got clarity that I don’t want to continue doing my job anymore and I don’t even know what I’m doing it for as London is so expensive our quality of life is not great. We have enough equity in our small London terraced house that we could move back to my home town (up north) and buy somewhere large and detached and lovely mortgage free, near much better schools for the kids and near my family. DH really doesn’t want to leave London as he loves it, and his work is here (his family is up north too but nowhere near mine). He would want to continue commuting to London if we moved, which would probably involve overnight stays and impact family life.

Im starting to feel a bit of resentment as I increasingly feel like I’m killing myself and sacrificing my quality of life so that DH can live his dreams. But I love him, am proud of what he does, and would feel awful to effectively force him to move (which we would need to do if I quit my job, as he could never pay the mortgage alone). I knew when we got married that this would be his career. I’ve thought of middle grounds like downsizing in London or moving to a commuter area if I took a pay cut, but that would feel like a much worse outcome for the kids, to leave everything they know for something materially worse, and/or both parents travelling more than we do now . I don’t know whether I’m being unfair in wanting to do this or not, or what the right balance is, so thoughts from other people would be welcome!

First off I would be batting the ball into your DH court and asking him to research suggestions to how this situation is resolved for your family and your finances.

Have you done this yet - what was his response - or do you carry the emotional load for the family on your shoulders. It’s lovely that you have indulged his creative passion to date but clearly a new chapter with you, your health, your experience of motherhood and your DCs experience of you as a mother in their short lives needs to happen.

Make sure you all consider the emotional costs as well as the financial. PP mentioned high powered bankers etc retire at 50 due to stress. They often have not been juggling family life - and gone thru peri-meno which you will be in very soon.

I would do this in stages.

You could rent yours out and rent somewhere commutable. The new renters rights legislation means you could choose to be there for only 3 months if it was a disaster and you could move back to your home. I live in a commuter village. It’s 18 mins to central London. It’s much cheaper than central London for property. I look out onto fields and woodlands but can be in central London on 18 mins. It’s also a grammar school area. You could buy a house the same size as your terrace mortgage free here. But rent first.

I personally think the big dream house in northern town is a red herring - quality not quantity - also your family have never helped you but you are happy to put yourself up for elderly care? Why - what about you ? You have indulged your DH - look at caring for yourself more. Take time out to be with your DCs and see where it takes you. Don’t burn all your bridges or opportunities. But you do need to prioritise your physical health, your MH and your one opportunity of motherhood - because your OH isn’t doing that for you - he’s taking care of himself at a deep cost to you. Seems he has very enriched and fulfilling life from his passion, his career, his opportunity to parent hands on, no money worries.

Ask him to come up with plans to keep you afloat - but please put yourself first.

Did you have any discussions before getting married and deciding to have kids, eg your DH saying he would never want to move back up North or you saying you’d never want to leave London etc? I do think you’re moving the goalposts significantly especially if it was you who wanted kids and is now saying you ‘need’ to move for the kids and the bigger house, so unless he’s fully on board then it will cause issues in your relationship down the line. The commute time and wanting to live in a city is a red herring, you already live in Zone 3 so it’s hardly central London vibes, and it won’t be that different to say somewhere in Zone 6, where you can get a cheaper house and commute to Waterloo, London Bridge etc in well under 20 minutes.

Of course he wouldn't have been happy living in a grotty bedsit with no kids. Thats evidenced by the life choices he has made.

As a child free by choice artist ive lost count of the amount of people with kids and comfy lives telling me "if only X hadnt happened, I would have been living X".

Like they want to somehow flag that they're outside the norm while firmly existing within it.

I also think when you describe what he does do, its the bare minimum you should expect

Thank you @StandingDeskDisco. If we split up and he wanted to stay in London, I don’t think I would move up north. I grew up without a father (he walked out when I was 9) and it’s really important to me to give the kids a stable family home.

My mum is ageing and lives alone and has her own mental health issues (depression) which is why she hasn’t been on hand for me since I’ve had the kids but she had such a hard life when I was young and worked to give me a great childhood in very difficult circumstances.

You make many good points though and it’s completely true that I can’t have everything and need to have some serious conversations with DH.

100% agree. This is the right end of the telescope to look down. Job has to change. Might be able to stay in London or nearby - or look up north at opportunities. The rest falls in around this. I am worried that understandably you are so at the end of your tether that you are looking to kick it all in. That’s exhaustion and emotional burnout talking. See if you can get a sabbatical. Look for a job with a better work life balance.

My point about you moving up north after a divorce was a thought-experiment. Not whether you would actually want to, but what would his reaction be?

If he would object, that shows he wants the kids kept near him, which proves all your thoughts about "he didn't want children so it is my fault" are just toxic and not helpful to you.

I fear actually he would be ok with it @StandingDeskDisco! I mean, he would miss them obviously, but I can’t 100% say that he wouldn’t be ok with them living in different places. He wouldn’t be the only father to feel that way.

If you hadn't had your health scare and burn out but instead were thriving on the stress, were so driven that the long hours weren't a problem, what would the plan be then?
You still wouldn't be able to afford the type of house you'd like in an area you'd like to live in, am I right?

I wonder to what extent the stress/health issue has highlighted something you haven't voiced here yet.

Could it be that you and your husband don't want the same things?

I understand that you are driven to achieve because of your childhood. If your husband earned the same kind of money as you, you'd be able to buy the kind of home you want in a nicer part of London, right? If his career was less dependendent if being in London, if he too wanted to move back up north you could easily afford the upper middle class lifestyle you've worked so hard for.

Maybe you're realising that the things that really matter to you aren't such a big deal to him.

Neither of you are wrong, although I stand by my opinion that he has by far the better deal here.

Or maybe you're in the early stages of grieving the life you were trying to build.

You can't have it all. Something has to give.

You need to talk about it, honestly, calmly.
Together, and possibly even alone with a therapist first as there is a degree of black and white thinking going on, and a lot to unpick.

@EightSteps we could afford the bigger house nearer the good schools if I was happy in my job. We’ve recently stopped needing our nanny which was a huge cost, and could divert that money to the mortgage. I’m very conscious that that will lock us in to London/me into my job even more, and that coupled with the burnout is what is making me question everything.

Youre right that we want different things - DH’s job is his passion and he is fulfilled by it. Mine is a means to and end and I care most about family and the things I (would like to) do outside of work. Hence why DH would be ok living in a hovel in London but I wouldn’t be. And yes, if one of us was independently wealthy or if DH didn’t mind where he worked then it would be easy, but we love each other and what is reasonable to compromise on is what I’m working through.

Yes I can see YOU are working through this - is he?

OP, you have a general concept of where you want to be and think you can get to. You now need to start costing out the variables because as far as I can see, you are still living in cloud cuckoo land, sorry.

Speak to recruitment agents about jobs in Manchester/Leeds etc (for sake of illustration), what you are likely to get and the pay and hybrid working.

Can your company post you there, maybe not in the same role but a sideways move, even if lower paid?

How much does your 'Victorian villa' cost in the suburbs of Manchester/Leeds.

Are they near good schools, transport links? Do the schools have places for all your dcs?

Speak to estate agents about how much and soon you can sell your house in London. It is currently a buyer's market and the property may sit on the market for a long time unless you are prepared to list at a competitive price. The equity of 600K may be less than that if you take into account current market conditions.

What is the cost of dh's commute/accommodation in London?

Are you likely to need childcare/wrap around care in Manchester if dh is away 3-4 days a week and the cost of that, assuming your mother is unable to step up.

What is your timeline for implementing the above, assuming you are trying to do it in time for your eldest ds' secondary school.

The answers to any of the above may lead to significant compromises or you may be pleasantly surprised.

@blueshoes I do actually have a lot of that info already (haven’t necessarily posted it on this thread!). Haven’t gone so far as to enquire re primary school places for the kids - we are aiming to move next summer, so would put our house on the market after Christmas (will definitely be doing this even if staying in London).

I wouldn't underestimate how difficult it is to find a well paying job outside your current industry/role. Plentybof women have given up work and struggled to get back into the workplace. Most jobs expect experience and if you don't have it, it's hard.

I would also mention divorce, illness, redundancy - if you don't have a well paying job you could well be in a sticky position in say 10 years time.

So I would suggest you look into retraining eg teaching, social work, and dont just move up north and hope that a good job magically pops up.

If he would be willing to live in a hovel in London, surely this is a problem? The only thing stopping you downgrading your job and staying in London is the fact that you don't want to live in a bad area, flat etc. You could leave your job and trade in your current house for something much less nice in an area of London with good schools. Presumably this is likely to be what he would prefer.

It's likely going to be difficult to get him to support a move North which is mostly downsides from his pov.

I know you said your DH would want to commute to London and it would probably involve overnight stays, and that this would impact family life. But is that an absolute no-no?
I have friends with a pre-teen son who live outside of London (not commutersville, a different city a good few hours away) and one of the couple works in London for part of the week. It involves one, sometimes two, occasionally three nights away.
Maybe it's not ideal, but from my vantage point at least their DS isn't negatively impacted by it because he's always with one loving parent, and at weekends with them both.
Maybe your DH could look into a part-time lodger arrangement in London, if that would be within your budget, and do this?

So does your dh also want to move to an area with better schools, within London?

If/when you have discussed this, is there an awareness on his side of the financial effort involved? And of who is carrying the burden of this?

Your working hours sound really miserable to me. No wonder you are keen for a change. After such a traumatic event your dh is not wrong to wonder if you need to settle back in and see how things are.
You are also not wrong to say I’ve had a traumatic event and it’s made me re- evaluate how I want to live my life. If you cannot carry on the way you are (the should fundamentally be your decision just as dh’s career decisions are his). Once you’ve made that decision then it becomes a joint question of how to move forward within your new projected resource budget. It might be useful to acknowledge that your dh was sailing along quite happily and this is a big change and give him some space to come to terms with it.

I do think you need to rethink your life and definitely your work life as atm it isn’t sustainable

But I do think that the idea of exploding yours, your children’s and a reluctant husbands lives is a pipe dream

If moving to the suburbs and commuting into London is a much worse outcome for the dc what is the difference between this and ripping them from all they know and moving to your home town hundreds of miles away. Then having to find the money for dh to continue his career

I can guess what your dh does and I doubt teaching in a secondary school in the North of England is something he would choose.

He really doesn’t want to move and it might sound outrageous but with him being considered the primary carer would you be happy to go North on your own and paying CM for children you see EOW because that is a possible outcome

I suspect you are proud of the house you live in and the lifestyle you have and to move to a lesser house in a lesser area of London/ commuter town it would look like a downgrade and failure to your friendship groups.
Where as moving to a big detached house hundreds of miles away looks like you have done well for yourself.
I think you have to be practical and forget what things look like.

If you move to a cheaper house in London, it’s not going to be your forever home, it’s just a stepping stone to a healthier life, space to think about where your life is going and space to think about things that will bring in the money without having to be tied to a desk for 70hours per week.

I know you say you don’t want to work the hours you do but there is something in you that let this lifestyle creep up and consume you and regardless of what you do will you in a few years be back doing 70 hours per week, working weekends etc.

Your answer might be No that wouldn’t happen but over the years I have met women and men who have done exactly that. They can’t help themselves

I'm also interested to know more about your job.

How senior are you?

Would more seniority offer you more flexibility and a better work-life balance?

I'm not saying you should stay in your company or industry at any price, but is there any scope for improvement once you get higher up?

Or is there any way to scale things back?

Would working with a life or career coach help? Your health scare has made you reevaluate things, and that's good, but you might benefit from being supported to make changes rather than act from a place of fragility or desperation.

@Arran2024 I wouldn’t be hoping something random popped up - I would get a job in the area I’m currently in. (It was a pp who suggested I should start again).

@FairKoala you make fair points but the difference between moving to the suburbs and commuting vs moving to my home town from the kids’ perspective is (I) they see me more, (II) they see their extended family more and (iii) they’ve got a nicer house, which are all tangible benefits.

DH and I are pretty equal when it comes to childcare - I’m not sure how it would be determined if we actually got divorced but he does maybe 5-10% more. However we are not planning to get divorced and I wouldn’t move away from him if we did!

You couldn’t be more wrong re being “proud of my house” - it’s a shit house! It’s probably objectively the least desirable living arrangements of everyone we know - as all our London friends are better off (family wealth, dual high earners) and all our friends and family live in cheaper areas. This is part of my frustration - I’m working so hard and earning so much and it’s not worth it! My sister works part time as a primary school teacher in a much bigger house with loads of time with her kids…things just don’t add up for me.

Im a very hard working, driven, high achieving person. But there is no way I would do these hours if I didn’t have to.

Well it’s not for nothing. You’ll have a much more comfortable retirement after earning well for decades and paying off a mortgage of £800K as opposed to £300K right? Like it’s all relative but the money still means something.

I think having two binary choices isn’t an ideal starting point for a conversation. It’s not really London or (wherever) North right? There are in between options. At the moment your kids have a very present father and a stressed out mum juggling too many things. If you go north they might have a less stressed mum (but perhaps not - you will likely be caring for your own mother after the move) and a rather absent father dashing back and forth to London constantly. So trading time with him for time with you? Those just aren’t great options so personally I’d really explore all the middle grounds. There must be something reasonable somewhere reasonable for two full time workers. You don’t need 5 bedrooms, you don’t need the best ever school… mostly your kids just need the two of you to be around and everything else comes second.

Apologies if this has already been covered @ChickenChitty , Ive read all your posts but not RTFT...

Could you get a 3 or 4 bed up north and go with your plan and get a studio flat in your current area for DH during the week?

Alternatively, could you get a 3 or 4 bed up north and with the extra funds, DH could set up his own operation up North?

I completely agree with you that life is short, it is happening now, this is not a rehearsal and you should absolutely leave your stressful job! I have been trying to encourage DH to do the same, as although we actually live in same house, he is almost entirely absent Monday to Friday.

What is the point? We are not in any way wealthy, I work FT too, we can't send the DC to private school, we won't be able to fund their university education without some form of loans, our mortgage runs to our 70s, just why??

Congrats OP! I’m so incensed by this thread that I’ve come out of lurking after c 5 years.
To summarize: DH does c 2/5 school runs, probably didn’t earn enough to fully pay the nanny, travels away for work c 4 days/month, often works Saturdays.
Gets his self-worth from creative job.
Lives fully subsidized by OP but subtle implication that her finance career is overpaid & therefore rightly pays for his noble profession.
OP had worked like a dog for her DH & DCs while he put his male ego first. How many women would do that? Very few; they’d already have retrained as a school music/art/whatever teacher -or taken a TA school job to fit around the kids, self-deprecatingly mentioning their former creative hobby job.
I’m in my 50s & so sick of this shit.
I’ll be advising my daughter to think very carefully about having kids. Men like this one put themselves first (see OP‘s pp re her DH making her responsible for them even having kids); women put their children first or get harshly judged.
Fuck this!
And of course OP wants her big house up North. Otherwise what has she to show for the years of slog? When is it her turn to be prioritized? Why does she need to bend so far to accommodate DH‘s career & kids‘ friendships, schools etc that she nearly dies?

Haha thank you @FirstAndLastTime I guess it’s an honour! And sorry to have incensed you.

I can’t deny that what you say is true, including paying the nanny, though when the kids were babies he looked after them 1 day a week, and now they’re at school he does 2 pick ups instead (we’ve got an after school nanny 2 days, and I do 1). However he works every Saturday, which has long been a bone of contention.

He’s working in his chosen career and enjoying it and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that as long as I’ve been ok with it too, but I’m not really ok with the balance anymore and I do feel guilt about the impact of that on him.

OP, I'm sorry to hear that your father walked out and left your mum in the shit and that took such a toll on her and you. Have you now unconsciously inherited this toll to pay? There's a fair amount of talk about you feeling guilty. Does your husband ever talk about feeling guilty / grateful for you working so hard to fund his lifestyle? I do understand that he took on some teaching work (that luckily felt prestigious enough for him to accept) but you nearly dying should be a huge wake up call for both of you. If the only way for you to continue to service your minimum standard of life in London is for you to continue in a job that is literally zapping the life out of you, then you are right, you cannot live in London. And if you make the move out of London, you make it to somewhere that you WANT to live, that makes sense to you, that you feel will help you make the most of life even when the chips are down.