To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

Maybe the OP could move to Monaco? Probably a lot of PAYG there but many of their residents can afford those services.

by the ops logic the boats would pay for themselves

US and Dubai would probably be closest - and even then still not as bonkers as OPs suggestion

The more likely scenario in the future is that almost everyone will live on benefits thanks to AI. It will probably be called something other than benefits though!

UBI Universial basic income

And they’d have to pay a user fee for the sea. Presumably to a private company that owns and operates the sea.

although if you ran that on the general media based on many posters and voters i bet around 75% of the uk population would think thats a good idea.

Interesting. Working in finance you would understand that just because you can pay for a service doesn't mean you'll get it. Why would you get police or ambulance service in 5 mins if there are people who can pay more than you for the same thing? A demand based service will allow providers to maximise their income, put in a tier based service based on what you can pay. If you want a 5 minute emergency service response, that will be 5,000. If you're happy to wait 45 mins, that will be 3,000 etc. If you're rich and can pay 50,000 then your case work is prioritised even if it's an ambulance because you've broken a toe. Doesn't matter someone is having a heart attack or being murdered. If a wealthy person can pay more than you their money prioritises them. You die because the service is unavailable to you.

Again, being in finance, you would know that just because people don't pay tax, doesn't mean they will save that money. Many people spend every cent they earn. A windfall from not paying taxes would be blown not saved.

I do believe in personal responsibilty and I think there is a lot of wasted taxpayer money going on things that absolutely take the piss. I also think the NHS has had its day and needs to be privatised or remodelled.

But for the majority of OP’s post, I just read someone who was probably born into privilege, has remained privileged and is absolutely clueless about how the vast majority of people live in this country.

Fair attempt but must try harder op.

OP - If the police car you called accidentally ran you over when it arrived, leaving you brain damaged and requiring 24/7 care forever,.paid for out of your own pocket, would you think again about the wisdom of your suggestion? Just wondering where you would draw the line.

People used to die because they couldn't afford a doctor or end up in workhouses or worse if they were disabled.

It is an uncomfortable truth that absolutely nobody is guaranteed their health in to old age. You could become too ill or disabled to work very quickly through no fault of your own. Nobody is really helping disabled people in to jobs either, whilst there is lip service, it is hard to get accomodations.

What would you do OP if you suddenly became seriously ill or disabled? Are you leaning on family wealth or insurance for care or did you hope to have savings to see you through. Would you still have insurance or the ability to pay for insurance if you lost your job? Or would you like the NHS to be able to treat you where possible and have a guaranteed basic standard of support?

Nobody wants a society where we pay for policing, vaccinations etc either, these are for the benefit of everyone.

Interesting you chose defence as the thing that everyone needed to pay for. Military decisions being the decisions I most disagree with and would opt out of if I chose where my money went.

There are lots of things wrong with your thinking, and of course it's interesting that you've reached this conclusion now that you're comfortably retired and believe you'll never need public services again. You'd probably think a bit differently if you'd had a car crash at thirty and been left horribly disabled.

To pick a few examples:

Fire Services: You pay £100 a month for fire insurance. I don't pay/ can't pay/ have let my insurance lapse due to temporary monetary troubles. My house catches fire. No-one is coming because I haven't paid my fire insurance. You sit laughing, until the fire spreads to your house. Fire departments were made into public services because of scenarios like this.

Police Services: You pay £150 for a private security service. I decide I can't afford that, as do others. Instead I pay my Uncle Reinaldo for protection as he only charges £50 a month. Other people don't pay at all. Criminality thrives in poorer areas, like mosquitoes in stagnant water, and Uncle Reinaldo hires some of them for his protection racket. The costs of your private security steadily increase above inflation, for a worsening service, as the tides of criminality overwhelm the service you pay for.

Bin collections: That temporary cash flow problem I mentioned means I can't afford the £85 a month bin collection charge. You've paid for platinum service at £115 a month so you don't have to sort your recycling and your bin is collected twice weekly. Unfortunately, that isn't hugely helpful in stopping the rats and flies spreading from the growing pile of rubbish in my garden.

Schools: large numbers of children go completely uneducated because their parents can't afford, or won't pay, the fees. Over time the economy begins to suffer severe skills shortages, declining productivity and eroding of global competitiveness. Your quite shocked to see that the shares and bonds underpinning your vast private pension are decreasing in value as the the UK falls further and further behind.

Healthcare: You'll be pleased to hear that during my temporary payment difficulties my employer sponsored health insurance remains in place. Unfortunately you find as you age that your own private insurer has increased charges to £1000 a month with large excesses (or co-pays) and an ever growing list of exemptions. Worse still, you find it's virtually impossible to find cover past 80. Assisted dying has never been legalized because there isn't any profit in it, so when you develop a particularly nasty illness in later life, followed by another, each costing tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds to treat, you slowly watch your savings trickle away, wondering whether you'll run out of money or years first.

Yes there are problems, and yes I would like our welfare system to be more similar to a social insurance scheme with a more contributory element (as happens in a lot of Europe). Yes I would like to see improvements and changes to other services too.

But your idea is just unworkable I'm afraid.

The spirit of Ayn Rand lives on.

This post is the epitome of “more money than sense”.

or realism if the country went bankrupt ?

I googled the figures
On the average uk salary of about £35,000 a year, you pay around £6,686

So let's say you work from aged 18 to age 70 on that (yeah i know, wages go up but then so would the taxes and this is easier for illustrative purposes).

£6,686 per year to pay for everything for yourself that taxes normally cover.

That's £347,672 in total. After 52 years on the average wage, that is what you would have not been taxed if we abolish the tax system.

And from that, you have to pay for all services eg police, fire brigade, etc, any children you have, their education, medical expenses (co pay if you are lucky, full amounts if you are not. Insurance companies do everything they can to avoid paying out), you've got to save for your own old age, etc

It will be a bloody huge list of things that that just under £350,000 has to cover over the 60 or 70 years of your adult life.

Private schools alone currently cost £350,000 to £400,000 + per child for their whole education 4-18

Somalia has the least amount of public services and the lowest taxes in the world. I guess you could move there

want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

so let’s leave aside the whole ethical issue, seeing as you clearly don’t care. BUT this will not work. There will always be someone that’s able to pay more than you. You want the police? Too bad, Musk needed them as well and paid them 200 times whatever you’ll be able to afford.

hospital? Why not just have a bidding war. Whoever pays most gets treated first… you do see where I’m going with this, right?

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off.

There are plenty of people who work really, really hard that don’t have the earning capacity as others, for many reasons. So if you’re saying wages wouldn’t be the same for everyone then absolutely not.

Perhaps you should start.

If you can spout this crap when sober perhaps you will be more sensible when drunk!

This, this and more this!!

Oh don’t! You’re probably right.

Dont be quoting facts! That will spoil the OP's utopic fantasy!

Who would educate those police you’d like to call? Who would repair the roads for that ambulance you can get in 5 minutes. Who would train those teachers for all those schools? Who would empty your bins? What would we do with all those people who work hard in modestly paid jobs? This is the nuttiest post I’ve ever read in here-I’m shocked you can vote.

Exactly.

And people with bad luck, bad experiences, bad health, trauma etc.