To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

Mumsnet is an increasingly unpleasant place to be now, largely due to an influx of people like the OP. Pretty sure some are paid astroturfers, but plenty are likely to be genuine. Really depressing.

but then when or how should debates like the ops be had about society ? after all everone moans about taxes ?

Can you please explain how your ‘system’ would work for a disabled adult who is unable to work? Are their parents supposed to support them for their whole lives? What happens when the parents die and the inheritance is not a bottomless pit?

What about people who live in high crime areas who may need to ask the police for help more often than people in other areas do?

What if someone needs cancer treatment that costs hundreds of thousands? So they use all of their hard earned savings, and then their cancer comes back a couple of years later and they have to do it all again?

Please explain how it works for these three examples.

I can't be bothered to read all the comments but I bet this hasn't gone down well. Life hands us cards some are good and some are horrific. I am guessing you've been dealt a fairly good hand. I feel lucky to live in a country where basic human rights are there for all. The system protects you and keeps you safe otherwise it would be an absolute looting free for all for those in desperate poverty trying to survive. I take it you would pay into a judicial and prison system still? I love the fact that taxes are there to protect children in poverty and disabled people can live in dignity. I believe more tax should be paid by those thieving scumbag billionaires to relieve the hardship on working people.

Have a look at countries where they don't provide a social safety net. You have to hire security and carry a gun to survive.

Hard no.

but the billionaires made their profits with the system we have so why dont people want a better system ?

Not everyone moans about taxes. And I don’t especially want a ‘debate’ about a system which would leave disabled and other vulnerable people destitute.

One of the most appalling posts I've ever seen on here. As for "might get some people's backs up", do me a favour. More like a post totally designed to enrage.
Shame on you. Whilst this would not get you barred from MN, it should.

Ok, so you privatise healthcare entirely.
Obviously, people die of preventable diseases when they cannot afford treatment. Children die when their parents cannot afford it and childhood mortality skyrockets overall. Ah well.

Not everyone dies of their conditions- some are left permanently disabled by their illness. No ones paying them to sit on their backsides all day (yay! Money saved!) but we've also lost a pretty sizeable contingent of the workforce: People who COULD have been far more able, productive members of society if they hadn't been left untreated for meningitis or TB as children.

In an accident and can't afford a doctor- too bad. In our current degenerate society other people's taxes pay for you to get treatment and you'd get statutory sick pay as well. Disgusting. In this proposed scenario, if you can't afford a doctor, your options are to suck it up, basically. Sure, your limbs may be permanently disfigured if the bones are never set properly, you could be further injured when your broken rib slips and punctures your lung, you could die of infection or be permanently brain damaged by it(or attempt your own amputation when the gangrene sets in- if you're really plucky) and if you survive all this... what state do you think you'll be in to work and support yourself? How are you now less of a "burden" on others than you are in our current system, where, with prompt and proper medical care, you could make a full recovery in a matter of weeks and be back at work.

We could divide the world up into sections, let’s call them districts. These districts would be split on the basis of wealth and getting increasingly “poorer” as you go out. You could then have powerful, military like police that prevent peoples getting above themselves and moving “up” a district. But, you’ve got to give the youngsters a chance so maybe some kind of annual event where say 2 kids from each district can fight for a better life. It won’t come easy though, they’ll have to actually kill to get that better life.

Come to think of it I might write a series of books on it and see if I can get a big star in the film adaptation. I wonder if Jennifer Lawrence is busy?

Would that actually count as a ‘society’ rather than some kind of dystopian neo-Dickensian individualistic anarchy? Bring back the workhouses, eh Ebenezer?

but the costs and money has to come from somewhere it does not grow on trees so then that means a good majority of people have to pay large taxes to cover all the medical bills etc otherwise where else do people think the money comes from ?

I have just this minute seen this on Instagram

I can answer your last question for myself: I am Ms Hardworker. I have worked full time since I was 18. I paid for my University education and now in my fifties, I would consider myself advantaged compared to many. I do not claim benefits.

I believe that we cannot be part of a civilized society without protecting the vulnerable. Indeed, I would rather pay more tax and NI to improve our Health, Education, Police and Social Care sectors. I would also like to see public services improved and maintained - community cleaning and emptying bins, care and maintenance of parks and beaches, libraries and so on. I would like to see roads and buildings maintenance. I would like to see the return of Youth services, Meals on Wheels, Sheltered accommodation with live in wardens operated by the council, converlascent homes and cottage hospitals..... I could go on.

I agree that the benefits system needs an overhaul.

However, also have the intelligence to recognize that I have inherent privilege. I am white, middle class and educated. I come from a family that values books and education. I was taught right from wrong, and observed decency and morals from the adults around me. I was brought up in attractive, safe areas with low crime, decent housing and leafy surroundings. It is these priveledges that have enabled me to undertake skilled work and contribute to society. What if I been born in a deprived estate, in an area where industry was closed decades ago, where there is one bus a day to the nearest town and most residents cannot afford to learn to drive, let alone purchase a car. To parents and grandparents who did not work and were unable to demonstrate a work ethic or kind and decent behaviour. Because it was not demonstrated to them.

For a lot of these communities, the closure of mines and factories led to unemployment for the majority. Lack of hope and self worth can be endemic in such communities. I would suggest that many of those with enough intelligence and drive were able to leave and make new lives. Leaving the more vulnerable people - low IQ, disability, poor mental health. Often resulting in drug or alcohol misuse. Children raised in these environments and so the cycle continues. Those with work ethics are the cleaners, care workers, hairdressers, bin people, and so on. They have to rely on benefits because these roles are not valued.

My partner grew up in such a community. Her parents did have a work ethic. However, furthur education was 'ideas above her station', as was considering a career. 'Not for the likes of us'. The schools reinforced this - the options presented to her were shop work, care work (not nursing - too highbrow) and - if she was very lucky, admin. When she wished to move away from the town, she was shunned for forgetting her roots.

Children born into these communities do not have the same opportunities. You seem to believe that hard work creates equality.

You may not understand. I would be much better off financially with Reform at the helm. I would rather pay more tax for a fairer society. Whilst I believe that we must support our vulnerable, spending more on public services improves everyone's quality of life, including mine.

I know I am rambling now! But this is my take on it.

hence why we need debates like the op;s because at the end of the day who pays for it all, what happens when the country does go broke etc

I wish OPs parents had paid for contraception

Just getting my popcorn ...

WTA!

The people agreeing are likely those who haven't been exposed to something going wrong yet. I emphasise the word yet, as most people will.

Regarding healthcare, as you can easily see from the USA, a pay as you go service model only benefits the wealthy. People die due to not being able to afford care when they need it. If everything is on a pay as you go basis, not everyone is going to be able to save up lots of money for these eventualities, and some will experience very expensive medical conditions. Should they not get treatment when their savings run out? Or have to live constantly paying off massive debt because they got cancer? Or live hand to mouth due to an ongoing condition with no cure, like Type 1 diabetes?

You haven't mentioned defence. How would we pay as we need for that? Given we don't generally as a society know when its needed. If we didn't have some level of protection, other countries with different ways of living are very likely to invade. So your vision of society wouldn't last very long.

What about abandoned children? If it becomes too expensive for a family to access healthcare, education etc, and they accidentally get pregnant, they are more likely to abandon their children. Particularly if disabled. With no welfare system, who would look after them?

Your vision of paying for what we need is what used to happen, thousands of years ago, before society became civilised. And the poor died. They weren't able to save for occasions they needed help. The countries that used taxation and created welfare options developed much quicker than those that didn't. We are better than that now. Unfortunately there are too many people who abuse the system, which has caused the problems you are trying to solve. Unfortunately your ideas are way off the mark of what is achievable without a significant amount of debt, suffering, and death.

It seems you have some resentment that you have given more to the 'system' than you have needed. I would urge you to count yourself lucky. You haven't been out of work, very sick or injured, subject to a horrendous crime. Yes there are many things that are broken, but trying to fix them is better than getting rid and watching many innocent people suffer.

This is psychopathic thinking.

Really OP, the best thing you could do rn is get a free diagnosis on the NHS.

But where are those people meant to get this bank of money from exactly? My brother has fragile X. He is profoundly disabled and always will be. He has no bank of money and will never be able to earn it. So in your system, what will happen to him?

One of the many many issues with this is that jobs do not all pay the same. You say in a response that jobs should continue to not pay the same and make reference to doctors. I work with many doctors, and they would not be able to afford to pay for all of the services they might need. You say you used to work in finance but you must realise how much services actually cost?
In addition there are many valuable jobs that are very low paying, teaching assistants, care staff, shop workers, restaurant staff, the list goes on. We need these roles but even without paying tax and NI etc they are not likely to be able to afford to access services. They may work very very hard but just have a low salary, and you seem to think they deserve to have a much lower standard of care (or possibly no access to care at all) than someone who happens to earn much more?

I’ll also add to that, I know people who are most likely in the top 2% of earners and hardly work any hours, but they’d be able to afford more than someone who is a much harder worker just because their salary is greater.
it is actually quite upsetting that you think this way because it makes me realise there must be others out there who think the same. Yes there are people that abuse the system, but at least it makes it fair for those who are not huge earners.

Agreed. About wine o'clock, though...

someone say wine , one glass please

Thank goodness I'm a socialist! I couldn't ever imagine being ok about some people having reduced access to healthcare and education along with no welfare payments at all.

Society would completely collapse without these things. Imagine a generation of DC where only some of them are vaccinated. It wouldn't be long before all kinds of diseases made a reappearance. Crime would soar. Those in poverty wouldn't stand a chance of breaking free.

No. Everybody deserves healthcare, education and food. Absolutely everybody.

This opinion isn't a political viewpoint. It's a personality and one I always avoid at that. Can spot you folk a mile off.