To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

I don't think you realise how privileged you are. You say everyone could just save up and afford everything they need through hard work. What if when you grew up you had a difficult childhood e.g. experienced abuse, were a young carer etc. so you couldn't get the qualifications to get a good job, or you may have had to financially support wider family members (maybe your younger siblings who you didn't choose to have), and you may have mental health problems due to the trauma you've experienced. We don't all start on the same level playing field and while you could argue in this situation your parents may hold some blame (it's actually probably incredibly more complex than that) it still wouldn't be your fault but you might not have the opportunities to save a lot of money or earn a lot of money. Equally bad things can happen even to people who do save and have jobs that would mean they couldn't afford to pay for everything indefinitely (have you ever watched breaking bad as an example of how people can't afford cancer treatment under private healthcare!) You need to check your privileges, while some people probably are unfairly claiming benefits most aren't!

Also purely from an economic point of view, if you don't financially support people to have children (in a country with a declining birth rate), I'm not sure who you think is going to support the economy, pay the 'essential' taxes or look after you when you're old. We are most definitely a capitalist society (not as extreme as the USA thankfully), there is considerable evidence from countries with more socialist policies that everyone benefits, for example from lower crime rates (think about the actual causes of many crimes- poverty, underfunded mental health and social care services, lack of spaces for young people).

I am saying this as someone who knows myself that I am privileged and I don't claim any benefits, I pay more in taxes than the services I use and I am more than happy to do so (just to counteract your assumption that all those who don't agree with you must be benefit scroungers)

We all get frustrated by supporting the undeserving benefit scroungers. But it really seems like you should move to America or another third world country and then your dream will come true

What about disabled people ? Wages would have to be the same accross the board aswell most of the hardest workers are those in low paid jobs they often work longer hours and do harder work than someone paid twice as much to sit on their arse at a computer .
Just remember you're only 1 illness or injury away from needing those benefits yourself like can change very quickly !!!

I'm so sorry 😞 I was born three months prematurely and was weaned off heroin, so i dread to think how much my NICU care was. My birth mum certainly didn't have that sort of money, and my adoptive parents are well off but not that well off. I'd probably have not survived. 😞

Because they don’t want to pay so much of it obviously. Doesn’t mean they are illiterate or of such poor comprehension to realise it still needs to be paid!
I’d like to see my tax rates reduced and a means tested approach to pension payments. Doesn’t mean I’d like to pay 0% tax and see the poor with no healthcare or education 😂

@LettingTheBadThingsGo To quote Del Boy Trotter, you my dear, are a plonker.

but then whats the answer other than a new economic system ?

How absolutely god damn selfish do you have to be to even begin to think this is a good idea?? No one will have children then as they can’t afford them or child care so no doctors would be trained as no finance for that.
I’ll hazard a guess you’re a natural Reform voter as your ‘morals’ align with the ‘what’s best for just me then’?

Is that you, Liz Truss?

I have read that in the US, medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy.

A 24-carat plonker, no less! 🤣

well society needs to remember this thread when they moan about paying taxes

She said she worked in finance, bet it was the coin exchange at the local arcade 😂

I will admit I can't be bothered to read the thread because it will raise my blood pressure too much, and I expect this has been covered, but seriously, OP, has it not occurred to you that you/your family could undergo some horrific life-changing event that would mean you were dependent on all the structures that a civilized state provides us?

We'd have to go back to the pre-welfare state. People still had children, but mortality was high. People worked until they were physically unable, and many ended up at the poor house. Is this the sort of society you wish to go back to?

Perhaps fewer trolls on Mumsnet? 😆

Liz Truss is saying completely different things nowadays, though. She has been talking about things like governance by committees, about how no key decisions are made by MPs and the PM. Jolly interesting.

but its still a discussion to be had about society as a whole ?

the “night watchman” state has a number of problems with it.

firstly, there’s a lot of businesses which are what are called natural monopolies. These are businesses (like water supply) where it is much more efficient for one company to create water pipes into people’s houses.

pre pipes, water was bought from water sellers who came into towns, or people used rivers and lakes (and often then wound up drinking polluted water).

the Romans had state provided water in quite a few cities (a lot of their aqueducts are still around).

it’s not efficient or sensible for there to be multiple water companies with multiple pipes to your house. It’s visibly much more sensible to just have one.

the vast majority of countries that have water supplies only have one set of pipes.

the same applies to electricity.

railways began in the U.K. as private companies (who needed legislation to be allowed to build) but in most countries the railways and trains are a single provider (sometimes directly the state sometimes at arms length) again because it’s foolish to imagine railway companies competing but building two railway lines between eg Stockton and Darlington.

second, in many cases paying for something gives benefits to someone else. Imagine you have cholera. Without healthcare you give it to many many other people. If you pay for healthcare not only do you survive you don’t give it to all those people.
so even in states where very little healthcare is provided, these days developed countries will send in teams (eg with the Ebola epidemic) because they don’t want a worldwide Ebola epidemic.

famously a lot of the concern that led to the British first unemployment benefits and charitable healthcare was because so few of those who fought in the Boer war and onwards were physically fit to do so.

Let's all get into s time machine, go back 200 years and see how we all get on... sounds lovely..!😳🤨

So those poor people born blind and/or disabled, should what? Starve to death?

Are you 8?

@ForeverDelayedEpiphany Not that far back. Pre-1948 should do it.

they did in older civilisations because they were no use to society/

yes its cold, but thats history

It would be pre-1800s, actually. OP doesn't want a publicly funded police force either.

@Frequency Ah, yes she/he wants to strip away everything.