To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

And how does that work when the world is protesting immigration and is closing borders? I suggest you read up on some of these libertarian paradises like here https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/s/ry3PfSjIMm or this bunch of clowns https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/sep/07/disastrous-voyage-satoshi-cryptocurrency-cruise-ship-seassteading

Individualistic societies fail because no one wants to do the dirty grunt work that keeps the place ticking over. Best paid people in your scenario won't be Drs or teachers but the guy or gal that does the sewage.

Well thank god the world isn’t like that we’d all be running around like a group of barbarians. I’d like to live in a civilised society thank you.

I don’t even know where to start with this one.

I’d definitely want a society without people like you in it though.

"Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off"

This is where you fundamentally don't get it.

People with lots of money don't work at all. They invest then sit back and take interest and dividends. MONEY makes money, not hard work.

If wealth was taxed and distributed fairly, we would all be able to have fantastic services.

At a wild guess, I agree.

Fucking hell. I know things have become more dog eat dog these days and people are generally more selfish.. but good god!

Oh come off it. No one would ever want to do poorly paid but ESSENTIAL jobs in your ridiculous system. Why be a teacher, nurse, bin man or a carer if you wouldn’t be able to save enough to live in well in old age? The whole society would collapse unless the world would start valuing the jobs that really matter.

Yeh and then there is no those who have been born into money and privilege. Going by OPs stance then there should be no inheritance either

Fact: UK tax revenue is below the average of other developed economies, at 33.5% of GDP. This puts us below the G7 average, the OECD average and well below the EU14 average. We have lower taxation than France, Germany and even Estonia. (Source: Institute for Fiscal Studies)

Fact: Britain is one of only four countries to see a large fall in overall Welfare Benefit Generosity (WBG) over the past forty years. (Source: Comparative Welfare Entitlement project)

Fact: Because of the triple lock, pensions are the biggest burden on the welfare budget. Approx 55% of the welfare budget is spent on state pensions, compared to 11% on Family, Low-Income, and Unemployment Support. Pension generosity has increased since 1980. This is still one of the least generous state pension schemes in the G7. (Source: UK Government, Fidelity)

Fact: The total cost of pension tax breaks (ie those policies that encourage people to save into private pensions by offering tax relief) to the public purse is estimated to reach £59.1billion for the 2025/26 tax year. This has increased by £11 billion in the past 5 years. (Source: HMRC)

Fact: Unemployment benefits in the UK between 1980 and 2018 had the highest percentage fall, at 44%, of any benefit in the whole Comparative Welfare Entitlement Project dataset (across 33 high-income counties). Only Greece and Japan have lower unemployment benefits among comparable economies.

Another boomer pensioner benefitting from a state-paid university education and a hugely inflated property market who wants to pull the ladder up after themselves. I’m alright Jack.

What if people are born disabled or ill. Do we just leave them to rot?

OP - If you ever break your leg, you can pay for your own treatment in A&E. But since there is no tax, there won't be an A&E, so what you'll actually have to pay for is

• a hospital building
• all the equipment in it
• all the expenses of running it
• all the training and salaries of the staff

I'll send you the bill in about ten years when all of that is built/operating and all the people are recruited and trained. Hope the wait isn't too uncomfortable.

I am not even talking about the moral aspect, which is a separate issue.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this has already been tried. Let me tell you how it went. In the early XXth century Russian Empire your idea of the perfect society was implemented - I think 10% of the population had what you described with the rest just watching them, and working. Not being idle or on benefits because there were none. There was charity, but not benefit entitlement.

Look up what happened to the 10% of haves. Or, rather, what have-nots did to them, starting with the Russian Imperial family.

Would you, along with the rest of haves, if your society were to be implemented, feel safe to be surrounded by have nots? Would you rely on their goodwill to continue enjoying your standard of living, because you will have to rely on their goodwill.

We must learn from history, I think.

P.S. On a separate note, I hope your new born children will never need Spinraza (is $750,000 for the initial year and $375,000 per year thereafter). And no, Spinraza is not covered by any US private health insurance. Needs to be self-funded.

Ever read Animal Farm?

This is madness
What if you were involved in a car accident that wasn't your fault and needed all the emergency services / ICU care etc
. That would cost you 100s of thousands

Well for one that isn't a society. It is a bunch of individuals who happen to live in the same place.

For another, it won't be very pleasant for you either. if your paid-into fire service is out on another job, your house will burn. Because you haven't paid into the fire service in the next town over. If your neighbour's house burns, it will spread to yours because they have no fire service. if your neighbour gets a communicable disease you'll get it too because the health services won't go to him. Basically it is a shite and stupid idea.

The UK and other European countries have always had some sort of societal safety net. the feudal system wasn't great but the obligations went both ways. The poor house system was similar. Basically even then they knew that living without any societal ties or obligations is shite and stupid.

It might be worth looking at early colonial days in the US. There was no safety net - no parishes, no poor houses, no lord of the manor. So people looked out for their neighbours, helped strangers, women helped other women in labour, they joined together to form schools.

Your beliefs are abhorrent. And falling back on Kruger/Dunning is about a wispy as dandelion on the breeze. You posted to get a rise. Congratulations on having achieved your somewhat lazy goal.

Hopefully this graph will show you why there has to be a system that is fair for everyone.

We are not all born equal and it is absolutely not our fault. Society functions on having a wide range of people doing a wide range of things for the good of the whole of society.

I am in the highly intelligent 130+ IQ score. I did nothing to deserve it. I was simply born that way. This means I excelled in education and now live a comfortable lifestyle cushioned from many of the problems of life. I can employ a cleaner and order food to be delivered to my house. Who do you think does those jobs and how much do you think they get paid for them to then pay into this system? Because if we're all paying what we have spare I'll have more spare than them. So do I get the ambulance in 5 minutes but they have to wait 15 minutes? Does that sound fair to you?

Another example of why it's necessary for society to support everyone whenever their time of need comes. My neighbour slipped in the bathroom and the resulting injury means he will never work again. Absolutely not his fault either, water and tiles are slippy. He has had to apply for PIP, adult social care and other associated benefits and services. He did pay into the system with a good job until the day of the injury. But aged 42 had he paid in enough to claim back for the rest of his life? Probably not. 45-65 are key earning years in terms of experience and salary. Should he get the 30-60 minutes ambulance because the household needs to eek out their money?

He and his partner are unable to have children but what if they had 2 children by the time of the accident? How would his partner's wage have covered him, them and her for the rest of their lives? Should the children go hungry because their dad had an accident? Malnutrition is a key factor in reducing children's educational attainment. So he and his partner are 110+ IQ earners but the children, due to malnutrition as a result of being unable to afford food, end up with 90+ IQs and lower paid jobs. All because dad slipped in the bathroom.

Can you see why people are not always in control of all the circumstances and a welfare safety is there to help people who can't help themselves through no fault of their own. There are far more people not abusing benefits than are. Why punish everyone for the crimes of a few? Wouldn't it be better to invest in benefit fraud detection rather than assuming everyone is on the fiddle?

I am assuming you are neuro divergent in some way to see the world in such a black and white way. I also assume that you are not one of the disabled or sick people who would not fare well from this arrangement?

I'm thinking that the OP is probably very young. This has the feel of a Year 6 school project about it. It's the sort of scheme that only a very young person, with no experience of independent living, might dream up and hand in for their homework. I don't believe it was written by an adult.

What if you are disabled before you can start saving?

So I have cancer. I have a reasonably good job working for one of the emergency services. Paid higher than the national wage but not loads. If we had an insurance scheme as you suggested like the USA theb there is no way I could have afforded my treatment. In your world am I suppose to just lie down and die because I dont have loads of money because im paying for schools, police and whatever else you think is chargeable. My cousin was born with cerebral palsy so he won't have a bank of money like you suggest. Would we just put him down at birth? Just get rid of the disabled because the cant contribute to society? To be honest I would rather help pay for these people than live what ever life they can than live amongst people like you.

Are you for real? I hope you are never in a position where you lose your job and require a little help. What a selfish narcissistic mare you are.

I've heard some stupid ideas but this one is top of the stupid pops.

@LettingTheBadThingsGo Who is funding these services to be available in the first place though? Paying to use these services on an as needed basis is not going to fund the education, training, equipment etc needed for them to be available for you to use.

Hear, hear. 👏