To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

How would we ensure that all jobs had this disposable income component to enable people to save all this money? State school is about £8k a year. That's a third of the before tax income of someone on full time minimum wage. And if that child has a accident I'd hate to be in the 'dare I call an ambulance?' place rather than just calling it because it's needed. Or do we bump up minimum wage hugely? Do we have a compulsory savings scheme so that everyone has the savings to pay for the ambulance? How do ensure people are only spending that money on approved things? We already have smaller versions of this, like a LISA where you have rules to ensure you only use the money to buy a house etc, and it's a faff that has to go through a solicitor. Which is okay with house buying because you already have one, but it would be a significant expense otherwise.

I don't know, when the media can be so negative about public services, it's nice to remind yourself just what a life saver it all is, even if it's not perfect.

How old are you OP? I'd hazard a guess that you have the the same level of emotional and intellectual development as a not particularly bright 12 year old. The fact that you believe not paying tax and NI would leave everyone with a large amount of extra money is hilarious!

The system is currently far from perfect, but it's much better than what you're suggesting.

Yeah that's another issue. With the best intentions and the best work ethic in the world some people haven't got the qualifications or abilities to move up into management or more skilled work. If they're not well enough.

And those that are well enough are living on the breadline while working their arses off. In jobs that everyone needs but also look down on. Like deliveroo riders and stuff.

We would be an awful lot more attractive to many businesses within the EU , otherwise you risk just becoming a country of plumbers and spam farms and coffee shops. I think I was just saying that not everyone who leaves is at millionaire level or leaves due to tax - I agree about business taxes, but don’t think they are excessively high when you look at other countries rates too , where they are stupidly high though is business rates - this is just being used to prop up local authorities not getting enough funding to cover social care ( hence why I think a tax levy for insurance needs to be introduced for all age 40 plus and be ringfenced ( probably 2%) but then limit assets that can be used to £80k - it’s one of the few things I approved of that the Torysxwere going to bring in but yet still hasn’t!

And any one of us could become disabled tomorrow!
A few weeks ago, I was very active and busy in a job I loved, attending the gym 4 times a week. Now, I'm bedridden. Not saying this for sympathy, but to point out this could be anyone.

Soo.. @LettingTheBadThingsGo

At 18, I was homeless and jobless. I had left education due to poor health (I was at agricultural college but the things that later turned out to be pretty serious disabilities were just starting to really affect me..)..

I was housed by a Young Persons Housing system (shared house with staff/security at night, key workers etc).

In your system, I'd be on the street. How would your system deal with homeless people?

I couldn't get a job, the same health issues that made me leave education meant I couldn't work but even if I could, no one hires kids who turn up stinking and filthy in the clothes they slept in, in a doorway.

To get a job and get paid you need a bank account and an address. I had neither, I got a giro check once a fortnight that was cashed at the post office.

Fast forward to now - now I have benefits, I have a house bought with an inheritance and whilst on LWRCA i do permitted work.

If my health deteriorates so I can't do that work, and if there were no benefits system as per your utopia, I would be unable to pay bills and eat. I'd sell the house to do so and, then what.. live on the street, where will I charge my wheelchair and my CPAP machine and what fridge do I keep my insulin in?

When that money runs out and I can't afford to eat...

You envisage happy times in a world where people are dying in the streets?

Who would even pay for the people to come along and shovel up the dead bodies, you can't have 'pay at point of service' for that, dead bodies don't pay for shit.

What about all the other things that we pay for with our taxes - street cleaners, street lighting, sewers, all the infrastructure that needs maintaining - will we have to put ten pee in the slot for each street light we want on as we walk down the road? Will all roads be toll roads to pay for their maintenance?

Shes retired apparently. Absolutely astounding that someone could be that dense. But I guess if shes alright Jack, then fuck everybody else.

Maybe when people turn 70 OP we should just kill them off...they are pretty useless to the workforce and they take up a lot of unnecessary space. What do you think OP??????????

I can't see anyone wanting the kind of system you are sugesting. I don't even think you would, if you spent 2 minutes of actual thought on this.

I also really find it mind boggling when it is put that having kids is just another lifestyle choice like having pets or expensive hobbies. Who do you think you will be paying to do your medical care or look after your security if people don't have kids anymore, or can't afford to educate the ones they have. Presumably, the few that still make it through could then charge acordingly when you need their services. You'll be no better off financially nor getting a significantly faster response.

So rich families get richer because they can buy the best education, healthcare and opportunities, leading to the best-paid jobs for the next generation. Those born without wealth start the race metres behind. That's a recipe for permanent division, not fairness.

Morality aside there’s no sense to your suggestion anyway.

The issue is you think you’re currently only paying for people who can’t be bothered to work when the reality is that you’re paying for everyone including those who work very hard. You have also bought the myth that under capitalism hard work pays off financially. Well tell that to everyone on minimum wage in retail or hospitality or logistics or caring. All these jobs need doing so will they be much better paid under your system or will these people just have to accept if they get sick they die and if they get murdered it won’t be investigated because they don’t earn enough?

Both my partner and I are well educated, in full time employment and not poorly paid. We’d probably not survive in your proposed system if we had to cover all the services and infrastructure the state currently provides. I have no idea what your current financial situation is but you must be sitting on a gold mine if you think you’ll be ok if you had to cover your own health service, police force, roads and travel infrastructure, education, pensions, armed forces etc.

We had this many many centuries ago. Survival of the fitness. The weak and unwell, and disabled would die.

I can't read the whole thread - but i'm sure it's been said:

To see what happens when you remove state benefits just look back at history when we had children and the poor dying in the streets.

OP might be happy to step over the ''feckless poor'' but i'm not and i'm happy to see the majority here aren't either.

Maggie? Is that you? Back from the dead?

DS2 is bright - in fact he has genius level IQ! He is also autistic and ADHD. How would the spilt work for him? Disabled and bright. Not mutually exclusive.

OP doesn’t seem to realise that capitalism benefits from the welfare state far more than individuals. Free universal healthcare and education paid for by the state benefits employers. In recent years the exponential increase in housing benefit and in work benefits purely benefit private landlords and employers.

In addition to loss of state subsidies employers would need to increase wages so that employees who pay little tax due to low paid income could afford to pay their own way.

If the aim was to improve societal functioning by all citizens being rewarded by hard work it would also be necessary to remove all previous privilege so that everyone started on a level playing field. If access to education and healthcare and the police is based upon hard work in your lifetime it is patently unfair to receive free money from relatives to pay for these services.

I suspect that the OP is fine with state subsidies to landlords and employers and the rest of stuff tax and NI pays for. Just not the unemployed and the disabled. Take away the safety net for the vulnerable but keep state funding to increase profit.

What about people who are born disabled?
I don’t disagree that people need to take more personal responsibility though for things like health and education.

8 pages in and the only positive take-away is nobody has agreed with this nonsense.

What a disturbing way to think OP.

I was merely going to put 😱

Mumsnet, united for once! 😂

Could you give a bit of your own background?

Probably votes Reform....

We're 20 pages into this now and I have barely read any of them so this has probably come up, but aside from the moral issues with this plan, it is just practically impossible.

One obvious example I could pick from many: You can't just pay for the police when you need them because you need someone to pay tor the police when you don't need them. You need someone to train them, pay them a salary, maintain their equipment and buildings etc etc etc so that when you need them they are ready. The same is true of health and education services. Unless you want to add in those costs on to your bill each time you use them, in which case your £10 charge to see the GP will end up costing thousands.

Actually this type of poor thinking / ignorance impacts on a lot of people's views on public services. It's a shame.

Move to the USA. Their society is pretty close!

I do agree that we have far too many people coasting in a system that seems to encourage lack of hard work or self-responsibility. And we have far too many people 'administrating' it too.

but has likely greatly benefited from socialist ideas throughout her life..