To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

You sound so ignorant- two categories of child- SEN v “bright kids”, stupid and offensive all at once.

I think you totally misread my post.

I have the highest admiration for those working in the front line!

My ire is directed at the layers of bureaucracy and absence of productivity that sits behind that.

"lions led by donkeys" was the first world war jibe. Probably still true across much of the public sector

Wasn't the fire brigade the first free service? It so easily affects far more people than just the first immediate victim.
The subscription service is pretty much what we already have, just everyone is a member. Poorer people's fees are subbed by the rest of us so we don't have poor people dragging around all over the place with bits hanging off, I suppose.
OP, would you like to have maimed people cluttering up the place and bedding down for the night outside your house? Personally I prefer them to be allowed to use hospitals for free and be given homes if they can't afford them. I've lived in countries that don't and it isn't pretty 😕

And that’s why I won’t vote Green and certainly won’t vote Labour if it got out of hand and went a bit corbynista - however I’ve posted about my experiences in Copenhagen which I’m sure many would think is lefty because tax is high, - that is social democratic and does have strong social underpinning but it has a ton of capitalism too - it’s a different mindset, the older people I spoke to there didn’t seem to begrudge high tax because they liked a functioning society and that their kids had homes, they had grandchildren, hospitals were good, mental health care was decent, really good air quality, beautiful clean water, public transport good, cleanliness great etc etc

Under pure capitalism which I think is what you're advocating for, a lot of people would just die. Yay!

One of the most utterly ridiculous things I’ve read on here.

My sister is a senior paramedic, she studied for years, she works extremely hard 12 hour night shifts in an incredibly stressful job, she’s not had a Christmas Day off in 5 years and she has seen things you can only imagine yet she earns substantially less than my husband who has a flexible office based 9-5 role.

In what world would it honestly be fair that he would have more access to better services purely on the basis that he earns more despite the fact that his job is arguably less stressful.

Lots of people work extremely hard in lower paying jobs, what happens when the bin men stop coming to collect your rubbish because their wages aren’t enough to pay for their child’s education? or when no one is there to help your elderly mother to take a shower because no one can afford to be a carer in the first place? So so many of these lower paying jobs are absolutely essential for helping our country run but you’d soon find no one would want to do them if they couldn’t afford to pay for these basic services.

I am actually conservative leaning and do believe some changes need to be made but there must be balance. Would you honestly see a child die because their parents didn’t save enough to pay for medical insurance/ cover their medical bills? Sorry but that’s just vile.

This is a parody of all the benefits bashing threads on here, right?

Right?

What a short sighted and frankly ludicrous op.

Cannot agree as ive become disabled from cancer snd would never have been able to save for my treatment. I understand your sentiments but what if a child is born disabled?

Ummm… I don’t know the exact figure but MOST people don’t contribute enough tax to pay for the public services they receive.

Even as a higher tax payer I know I’m behind.

No thanks.

What the Op is really arguing for is an opportunity for more corruption & profiteering.

Unregulated services - because who will oversee them - allowing a free for all.
Cowboy medical/security/education/administration services run by untraceable companies (Companies House has many faults but even so) leading to zero personal or professional accountability.

And what do people who are genuinely unable to work do?

Unless you're in the top 5% (or something) I don't think you do. Very few of us pay in more than we take out over a lifetime.

For example my DH was a decent earner who paid higher rate tax, but his cancer treatment probably cost more than he earned in his lifetime, let alone paid in tax.

Honestly @LettingTheBadThingsGo , you have no idea of the care costs for disabled children and adults, thousands every week. How TF would anyone ever save enough before their fertile years were over, you couldn't do it in a whole lifetime.

Elderly people with no children to arrange care and support we just leave to fend for themselves?

Stop buying into the narrative of hateful political parties and have a bit of sense to see when your attention is being diverted in the wrong direction!

I’ve got one very bright child and one SEN child. They’ve both done brilliantly in their state schools. I’m not going to pretend there was no challenges, especially with my youngest, but I doubt a private school would have provided a brilliant resolution either.

Just say we went with your theory. Would prisoners have to pay for themselves or would that be covered by a country charge?
Who pays the charge for someone who becomes too disabled to work due to something like long covid? The person who deliberately spread it or the person harmed by it?
What happens if people can’t afford an education due to changes in life circumstances affecting parents ability to work?
What happens when insurance won’t pay for an operation?
What happens to the child of a 19 year old uni student who doesn’t want to abort after being raped?
What happens if charges in a sector suddenly spike (e.g. private schools)?
Who funds parks, libraries, clearing up fly tipping? Where will shanty towns form?
I’m not on benefits and we are considered a high income household, but people aren’t going to foodbanks for the fun of it, I don’t think someone can rock up to a doctor and make something up and get put on benefits for life etc.

Yeah it does. Grim as fuck really isn't it. Just imagine if they got run over by a bus and could never work again. Should they be chucked in an incinerator or something?!
A decent society has support for the most vulnerable. Not literally wishing them dead.

You need to take a course in basic economics and learn about things like economies of scale.

Meanwhile, explain how we're going to pay for roads. Will everyone build their own?

Either that which did cross my mind - or Farage or Rupert Lowe has joined mumsnet

Your post claimed that frontline services are inefficient and that I should talk to the frontline to understand this. I’ve explained that I have spoken to many people working in frontline services and in fact they are understaffed. Understaffing is the issue, not too much bureaucracy or too many managers. That’s a stupid trope trotted out by the right wing media.

GCSEs are over, and somebody has discovered Ayn Rand.

I was going to answer then thought why?

A person who has a child born disabled (bearing in mind it was their own free choice to have children in the first place) would have large savings from paying no tax/ni and thus would pay for and look after their own child.

How large would these savings realistically be? What sort of percentage of income would people be putting by just in case their child was disabled? Would they realistically put this money aside? On top of all the others stuff? And do they're still need to pay once the child is past 18? Presumably, because the child won't magically be earning if disability is severe. And once the parents are dead - what then?

I am envious of you OP. It is wonderful for those who have not been dealt a shitty hand, nor have anyone they love dealt one either, they are the ones this appeals to. I was diagnosed with MS whilst at uni before I had a chance to earn. As it happens I am not and have never been on any benefits. I am from the states originally where your views are very commonplace. I also know people there who sit outside of the hospital and wait to see how sick they or their child gets because they can’t afford a false alarm. It’s all good until it’s you. Your view also requires hard work to pay equally to be fair and it’s not. I know a lot of very high earners, many work hard, but so does the hospice nurse next door.

Your level of intelligence is quite worrying.