To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

Good god. So if you live to a ripe old age and get dementia, have run out of savings, you should be… what? Put to death? And where does the infrastructure come from? Who pays for roads and hospitals to be built in the first place? If a single mother dies, what happens to her children, who pays for them?
You haven’t thought this through at all. It’s actually quite disturbing.

Same for my Gran. Parents were poor immigrants fleeing Nazis. She worked her way out of poverty as an adult and is still a massive socialist. Love her.

You don’t believe in welfare???

@Winglessvulture

"I am glad we have a welfare state. I would happily pay more taxes to improve things like the NHS, education, support for the elderly, disabled and long term sick, because we are a society of interconnected people, not just a bunch of random individuals in some kind of crazy zero sum game to hoard wealth and stick two fingers up at everyone else."

With the greatest respect you don't get it. It is your willingness to be generous and public spirited that is being so badly abused. You are just not seeing it.

There is no limit to the amount of money the people running the NHS and other public services would like you to pay. The people running these serviced are not altruistic!

Their interests are served by keeping their jobs, not being challenged and remaining inefficient. Your goodwill is naive and actually part of the reason nothing ever gets better.

Honestly, no.

I think she’d have preferred a safety net that meant she didn’t have to live in abject poverty with her children.

She died a very bitter resentful woman, probably exhausted from a lifetime of caring for everyone with very little resources to do so, I think some help might have been appreciated.

What about people born disabled? What do they do?

Back to dying on the street. Good ol' Victorian days.

I get what you are saying, but it isn't workable.

Rich people pool resources for private policing in posh neighborhoods of London.

Branson's Nekkar island has government (British virgin islands).

When I say I wouldn't live in your proposed society I mean that I would never support this kind of society to exist! Not that I would leave, thank you.

Not sure why I'm engaging really but here goes - yes, I'm delighted to live in society with a tax system that supports vulnerable people. I work hard and pay a lot of tax and am happy to live in a (relatively) wealthy, safe, and free society with a welfare safety net. I am happy about this because I don't just care about myself but about others.

This is a key part of what being human is about - not just caring about your own interests. You seem to have missed this part of growing up, OP?

Complaining about posters contributing to MN during the day (must be on benefits) whilst posting in the middle of the day.

I’ve read some self-absorbed, myopic shite in my time but this takes the biscuit.

It wouldn't work though. The NHS is massively subsidised. You pay what a couple of hundred a month in NI? Do you know how much drugs actually cost? Chemo for example can be 7k per cycle. You wouldn't have this big pot of money because what you save wouldn't remotely cover private medical treatment.

Funnily enough I just this morning watched a you tube vido about disney parks - how they have made it a worse experince by prioritizing people paying more.

They make more money from that in short term. In long term kids aren't going to have ambitions to go or memories of going and it's a shitter expericne for most people - and at soem point word of mouth will start to get around with that.

Vegas went down this route as well - price gouging everything now seem surpsied there aren't the same number of people going.

A country doing this - well you'd soon get gangs and protection rackes and vigilantes - people adapt.

The aim of the thread isn't to ask how every little thing would work. That would need far more thought and working out. Not for one second do I think the change would be easy to implement nor be able to happen over a short term period.

The aim of the thread is should adults pay for themselves? I honestly can't see why this answer is no.

I can't even begin to imagine how much my son's cancer treatment and hospital stay cost including the complications he experienced. Very, very few people would be able to afford it if they had to pay for it.

But it was easily treatable and now he will live a long life.

I bet OP's tune would change if it was her child and she couldn't afford it.

Do you work op, are you posting from work or sitting at home, mso you work, if not why not.

This might be the dumbest take I’ve ever read lol that’s no small feat OP, be proud!

@LettingTheBadThingsGo so, you’re saying that you don’t use any services such as schools, nhs etc etc , because if you do then other people are paying for you and you’re allowing them to. Hypocritical as well as a dick. Your tax and NI contributions to date will not have been enough to pay for any and all public services so far over your life, and nor will they ever, so you’re one of the scroungers too.

@LettingTheBadThingsGo , do you realise that only around 17% of people (in the UK) with disabilities were born with them? The other 83% acquired them during their lifetime. It could happen to me, it could happen to you, it could happen to anyone. And most people don’t earn enough to save a large pot of money for their care costs in the event of this happening. Not even if they didn’t pay income tax or NI when they were able to work.

Also, if people need to save a huge amount before having kids in case their child is born with a disability, the birth rate will fall further.

In your world, the gap between the richest and poorest would grow, which means that life expectancy would fall and crime would rocket. The poor would live in dire poverty and the rich would effectively live in gilded cages, under heavy security. Would anyone feel safe or happy?

Why are people even entertaining this attention seeking nonsense?

So far everyone is saying my idea is terrible. I wonder if most of the people who have posted so far are unemployed, claiming benefits and sitting at home. Thus of course they want the free money to continue

I'm on my lunch hour. What about you? Your inability to see a bigger picture is, frankly, astounding. Take a look at some poorer societies and see how the poorer people live - India, South Africa, China? And then look at the impact of that poverty on the wider population. Can you manage that?

I just can't understand why Mr Hardworker who pays a ton of tax and gets nothing for it would want to continue like this

Literally thousands of hardworkers are claiming benefits. And paying tax. I'm a teacher and claimed tax credit for years. Your Mr Hardworker hopefully recognises the importance of a civilised society and the impact that has on him and his family. If he doesn't, well, you're the result aren't you? The ignorance is astounding.

@LettingTheBadThingsGo You are advocating for people who can’t afford medical treatment to suffer inhumanly. Someone is bleeding profusely, are you going go to watch them bleed to death because it has NOTHING to do with you?

You jumped the shark when you mentioned paying for Police attendance.

Their interests are served by keeping their jobs, not being challenged and remaining inefficient.

I do pity people like yourselves who live in such a hostile and paranoid frame of mind. Have you considered that the selfishness you perceive in others is most likely a projection of your own traits, that you feel shame for?

You are adamant people would pay for what they need. That they would have the money to.

But that is not what would happen.
Most jobs barely pay enough to get by. There is no way current minimum wage jobs would pay enough for people to save up the millions needed to cover every eventuality.

So without dodging the question and saying they'd have to, or they'd have money, answer this.

Do you want to live in a country where people starve to death, where newborns die because their parents can't afford hospital care, disabled people die because they cant afford personal support and care, elderly people sleep in gutters and poor people can be raped and abused because they cant afford to pay the police.

Dont be a coward. You couldnt be more anonymous. Is that the country you want if it means you dont pay any tax?

This used to be a country where if you couldn't pay for yourself you could starve to death. In your history books does it describe everyone living well? Because in mine it describes children starving, people dying on the streets, 15 year old prostitutes disfigured from syphilis...

But If you are rich and so can do what you want can you not just kill with impunity and do as you please and not go to prison so the world is like mad max