To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

I'll chip in towards relocation costs let's start a fund raiser

Youre obsessed with thinking of the idle!!

A far higher proportion of people work hard for very low wages. The disabled. Those who get sick.

You'd see society collapse- there would be alot more laying about doing nothing then.
You'd be seething!

What is your level of education and did it include a basic economics course? There are so many practical and philosophical reasons why your suggestion would not work. And of course there’s the morality factor. 🥴

Please explain how this utopia you plan will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, so there are enough jobs to support 100% employment?

So you've saved a nice £1 million from not paying taxes and now you have cancer. Your cancer treatment is going to cost £2 million. Sucks to be you I guess.

In America where they have private healthcare, a cancer diagnosis often leads to bankruptcy and death from lack of treatment, even with insurance.

They have very few taxes in Dubai. Everyone is expected to pay for their own education and health care etc. They also have slaves. So I guess that system is working well.

I'd be curious to know how much you earn OP. Very few people in the UK are actually net contributors to the government purse strings, once you account for education, healthcare, security from policing and defence services, transport systems including road maintenance, social care and pensions in later life. You basically have to average out as a higher rate tax payer your entire working life to be a net contributor.

Turn in her grave to see people now living a life that would have helped her incredibly?

What kind of a nasty attitude do you have to have to begrudge people having good things because you personally never had them?

So if you break your leg but can't afford to pay the hospital you think you should get it for free and other people in society should pay for you.

Why? Seriously. I mean assuming you are a grown adult who has a job (if not, why not). Why would someone else pay for your leg to be fixed. It's nothing to do with them. They wouldn't pay for your Tesco shop so why would they pay for your doctors bill.

So what happens with the people who are born disabled or sick? Presumably their parents have to also save for them for their adult lives, as well as their own? Also, additionally, for kids who become disabled due to illnesses or accidents.

The world isn’t as black and white as this I’m afraid Maggie. You’d also have to up minimum wage significantly so people could actually afford to run a household on it. This would then crush small businesses. We’d live in a mess with disabled, sick and old people dying on the streets which sounds great.

I recommend you watch the documentary Sicko.

This OP is an excellent argument for banning under sixteens from social media, isn't it?

Because we live in a society!!!! Because it's normal to care for others!!! What has happened in your life to make you so bitter?

LettingTheBadThingsGo

What happened to you to have lost compassion and perspective?

@LettingTheBadThingsGo here are the countries with the lowest social spending. Please go and visit and let us know if you still fancy what they have to offer:

Papua New Guinea
Myanmar
Guinea-Bissau
Sao Tome & Principe
Cameroon
Samoa
Laos
Togo
Tanzania
Madagascar
Ivory Coast
Zambia
Somalia
Dijibouti
Honduras
Zimbabwe

Look forward to hearing which one you will move to.

Agreed but possibly is 16 and just finished GCSEs. It is an impossibly immature and simplistic argument.

Actually, no they are not. No country operates like the op wants. There are only a handful of countries in the world where primary education isn't free. Whether parents can afford to access it, buy the uniforms, and spare the labour of the children is another matter. The schools themselves are usually free.

Police corruption is rife in many countries, but nowhere operates a system where the police will shrug and turn away whilst you're being assaulted, because you haven't paid for them.

Many of the poorest countries on this planet operating near to what the OP suggests, and consequently have horrific poverty and mortality, and babies do die in the street. The OP wants a far more extreme version of this, because she selfishly believes she'll be okay.

Urgh.

Okay I’ll bite:
I’m not currently using the country’s education system but I’m happy for my taxes to educate children. I’m happy for my NI to help fund vaccinations (I’m looking at you Polio, mumps, measles- none of which I want) because I don’t want other peoples kids to get any of these either.

I’m happy to trade a portion of my income for police, schools and healthcare. Our society is built on this, giving up somethings for a better outcome. I chose to give up driving in any manner (ie I don’t drive 80 whilst weaving all over the road) but we all do and in return it’s safer.

So who is going to provide your care when you are older and need support for washing / dressing etc. Because in the utopia you describe no care worker on typical care worker wages is going to be able to afford to live here.

So you raise everyone's wages up right? That's the simple answer. Now you have rampant inflation...

I think maybe you should read up on economics a bit more. It will be enlightening.

I can only speak about my own great grandma who experienced similar hardship. It made her the staunchest socialist you'd ever find. Rather than foster an attitude of pettiness wanting everyone to struggle as she did, she focused on the inequality at the root of the struggle and directed her anger up, not down. Incredible woman.

Do you think a child should suffer in pain because their parents either couldn't or didn't want to save for medical treatment?

If it something easily treatable but would otherwise result in a child dying would you happy for them to die instead?

Who paid for you to be born and educated

This is what I was thinking - there are loads of countries that are very much like op's utopia. Surely it was be a lot easier for her to move to one of them and live the dream, rather than try to recreate it here and make all the rest of us leave!

Not the OP but in her case I'd be asking for a refund for the education part...

How would you feel about DC not going to treat you when you are ill or care for you when you are old? How would you feel about DC not serving you in a restaurant or supermarket?
Because the first thing I would teach DC in your ideal society is that some people are are just not worth attending to. Especially the smug ones who think they can buy everything and don't need the good will, care and help from other people.

Thanks for acknowledging that the current system is not working.

The system was designed with a sort of social contract that everybody would support themselves and only get welfare if they truly needed it. This has been so abused that we are now in this situation where lots of people are working hard, paying tons of tax and getting nothing for it practically. Others are milking the system and laughing at the poor mugs working for it. There is no social contract anymore.

So far everyone is saying my idea is terrible. I wonder if most of the people who have posted so far are unemployed, claiming benefits and sitting at home. Thus of course they want the free money to continue.
I just can't understand why Mr Hardworker who pays a ton of tax and gets nothing for it would want to continue like this.

what would you do about no-fault health conditions? You any idea whatsoever what it costs to live with a condition like Type 1 Diabetes for example.

A welfare state ensures that society is generally stable and that the rich aren't living in gated communities with armed guards whilst the middle classes take their chances.

Wow. Just wow