To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

I struggle to believe that anyone actually think this is a good idea.

Your 'idea' seems to be pinned on some kind of warped radical individualism whereby people have total control over their lives. That in no way reflects reality.

If you are fortunate enough that you and your family have never been seriously ill, been in an accident, lost a job unexpectedly, given birth to a child with complex needs, then you are very lucky indeed. But that is all you are, lucky. You are not morally superior. There is so much of life that is totally out of our hands despite our best efforts.

I am glad we have a welfare state. I would happily pay more taxes to improve things like the NHS, education, support for the elderly, disabled and long term sick, because we are a society of interconnected people, not just a bunch of random individuals in some kind of crazy zero sum game to hoard wealth and stick two fingers up at everyone else.

Ok so I'm going to humour this stupidity for a moment. It could work, but it would require the following to minimise mass poverty and death:

• a guaranteed job for every adult, suitable for them, with a minimum level of guaranteed earnings. This includes those who struggle to work because of illness or disability - the same universal minimum income (not per hour, but overall) will apply, even if their illness means they can only stuff envelopes at home for an hour a week. The government will need to impose this obligation on employers and itself. So every single person has the ability to earn enough to fund themselves adequately.

• price caps on everything, but especially healthcare, policing, education etc.

• insurance companies will be mandated to take everyone irrespective of pre existing conditions, for no additional cost.

• on demand easy to access upto term abortion and possibly infanticide and euthanasia of children who become disabled.

• the buying and selling of children, including to abroad.

I'd actually counter with the fact that lots of people don't get their crime attended to by police because their are so underfunded (money going to other things). I'd also counter lots of people on waiting lists for years and years so at best getting really bad healthcare due to it being underfunded.

The way we are running the country just now means people ARE going without police or without healthcare. You say you wouldn't want to live in a country where that happens......

Do you look around and see a country where everyone is born with exactly the same amount of financial, physical and cultural privilege?

No? Well, there you are then.

@LettingTheBadThingsGo there are loads of African and Asian countries operating as you want.

You can live there

Fine by me, but only if we get rid of all inherited wealth. You didn't earn it.

Let's all just fight it out. I fancy my chances over yours.

At the moment, people MIGHT go without these services or have a slow service

Therefore the solution is a society where many people will DEFINITELY go without those services

Makes perfect sense

Op, there are countries where the state is like this (the term often used is the “nightwatchman” state - ie it does defence and law and not much else).

they are not generally places that are nice to live in but you might want to go and experience it?

many sub Saharan African countries are like this - no state healthcare or police or welfare state or fire service.

most countries have free schooling of some sort as the UN has been pushing it but in sub Saharan Africa the paid for schooling is generally extensive and better.

maybe try Malawi or Botswana?

these places do exist, but most people from the uk wouldn’t want to live there

This is so impractical I can't believe anyone actually believes it.
How is defence paid for or do you imagine individual people defend the country? What happens if a child is orphaned? How is the police force funded? The courts? Prisons Etc or are you suggesting a free for all?
What about people who have always worked hard but always in lower paid jobs ( and we need people to do those jobs) how do they save enough to pay for their healthcare/ retirement etc. what happens to children if their parents reject them? What about children who have abusive parents. Just leave them because the parents didn't need to have them in the first place?
The test of a society is how well they treat their vulnerable members your philosophy is to ignore them.
But also you are very naive if you think that people could save enough money from not paying taxes to fund their healthcare, defence, retirement, etc

Ignorant or goady @LettingTheBadThingsGo - which is it? I vote ignorance

So from the age of 18 a yp can save, say, £400 a month instead of paying taxes. 4.8 k pa. So let's say at the age of 28 this person decides to have a kid. That 48 k is going to have to do some heavy lifting if they want:
Birth in a hospital
Maternity leave
Education for their child
Health care for their child
Roads
Bins
Health care for themselves
Libraries
Swimming pools
Parks
Etc etc

I'm sure there are countries in the world where life is just like that. Go there maybe? An undeveloped country will tick those boxes for you

Imagine a newborn, born to parents who cannot take care of it, or who neglect or abuse it. That newborn has no money, and the useless parents certainly aren't helping it or paying for support.

But there is no social or children's services that can intervene to support the baby, because these things are funded by taxes. What happens to the baby in this hypothetical society?

Back to Victorian times then. Great! Maybe you could read Halle Rubenholds book The Five which details what life was like then, especially for women.

I was thinking this.

OP seem to want a USA - very unhappy counrty - or undeveloped country system - why can't they just move there - why drag rest of us down with them.

That is your view though and you are entitled to disagree. I am quite happy to hear different views.
My view is you are quite mad for expecting me (a stranger) to pay for you being out of work or having a ton of kids. The only person who should pay for those things is the person making the choices ie you.

I thought OP was going to say something like she didn't want to keep buying rounds of drinks!
This......unbelievable.
Even neanderthals looked after their sick and disabled.

Let's see how safe you feel when someone down the road can pay the police more so they get there in three minutes instead of five. Or someone else pays regularly so they can avoid speeding fines, and someone else pays for the police to look away as a bothersome local goes missing. Will you complain to your MP? You probably won't be able to afford how much they want. There are very good reasons why some services are publicly funded.

Disabled? Blind? Armed Forces Veterans? Abandoned mothers? Frail elderly? Personally I think people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Sorry I added the wrong quote and can't change it. I meant to quote OP when she says savings from not paying tax will enable everyone to fund their lifestyle

What about people who are born with disabilities that severely restrict their ability to earn, and at the same time cause them to have particularly high need for medical care?
What about people who become ill with children to care for, who have earned too little for insufficient time to have built up a cushion of savings? It would take an average earner way beyond their fertile years to save enough to keep a family in the event they couldn't work again.
What about children who were orphaned or who's parents couldn't care for them?
What about people who work incredibly hard to set up a business which then fails due to unforeseen circumstances, they end up in debt and have no money in their old age?

I am sure there are some parts of the world that have a society like the one you’re desperate for, maybe move there?

This post reminds me of my 14 year old self, who thought we shouldn't have armed forces, and should just all get along better 🤣

Even fascist regimes provided state funded services (for the “in-group”).

Who would want to be a paramedic anyway on their current wages if they also had to fend for themselves? They wouldn't be able to afford their own ambulance if they ever needed one.

This has to be one of the least well thought out posts ever.

I'm not a criminal and I don't agree with it.

So you're somehow eradicating all disability and old age in your new society.

What happens if one of these mythical people who have managed to afford and plan for everything gets sacked from their job? Do you ban sacking in your new society? Or do they magically walk into another job?

Is everyone provided with critical illness cover if they're unfortunate enough to get ill so they can't work? Or if they have an accident?

True and I respect that but do you not think your admirable grandma would turn in her grave at what is so easily given to people now in contrast to what she had to graft for?