Child attacked at preschool - need advice on how this has been handled

[Preschoolpickle]

My 3 year old has been attending preschool since January. He has settled in very well and seems to really enjoy it. My older child went there too and it has always been excellent.

Last week he was attacked by another child. The accident report says that it was unwitnessed by staff. It took them several hours after the incident (time written on the accident report) to phone me to let me know. The accident report followed later that evening. I phoned the GP for advice on his physical injury and they advised taking him to minor injuries, fortunately no lasting damage.

The manager informed me that the child that attacked her has SEN, and is ‘very fast and very unpredictable’, and has attacked another child once before and has hurt staff. This week I have been in for a meeting to discuss it.

My main concerns are the length of time between the incident and them phoning me, and the fact that this wasn’t witnessed by staff. Given that the other child is a known risk, it feels like a supervision and safeguarding failure that they weren’t being watched. In the meeting they advised that they would keep a closer eye on the child in future and try to keep them away from my son but they couldn’t guarantee it won’t happen again. I’m still worried, and I just don’t know what to do. I’m loath to move him when he’s so settled there, but I am concerned.

I could really do with some advice. In this situation, would you move your child?

I would expect there to be a member of staff present at all times and supervising closely enough to prevent a child known to be violently aggressive from attacking another child.

If the nursery say they cannot afford to have a 1:1 for that child, then they have just admitted that they are not able to ensure the safety of the other children present.

Not realistic when you have 20something kids with 2-3 adults, and those adults still have to change nappies, deal with accidents, clean up, complete paperwork, and you know - actually interact with and teach the children, set up activities etc.
You'd be lucky to have only one child with a history of aggression or who might be a danger to themselves in a class too.

No nursery can offer 1:1. There’s never been money for this! Unless EHCP is providing funding. If I ran the nursery I might reduce hours of violent dc and perhaps ask parent to stay - DBS checked of course.

If you want to move them, move them, but in reality most settings will have that sort of child, and ratios are really high and they won’t have funding for 1 to 1 and when they go to school those same children will be in their class at school. Good luck, really hard when your child is the target.

I feel awful for you OP. No little kid should be subjected to this.

I work in this industry but not in UK and I can tell you it's everyone's nightmare. We have an 11:1 ratio, sometimes less if we are not fully booked. If additional needs are identified and months of paper work completed we get funding for an additional person, so 8:1 ratio. That's only if we can recruit this person which sometimes doesn't happen. We cannot ask the SEN to be moved because there is no such place that would take them unless they have a diagnosis, which they won't have by 3 with waiting lists unless there was a physical issue. So it's a rock and a hard place. If we supervise intensely 1:1 the SEN child is being excluded but also the other children can't have a good experience because that leaves potentially 21:1. We had this difficult scenario once for a few months and certain activities couldn't take place, less outdoor play, no painting etc.. many toys and materials had to be removed from the floor. It's an absolute failure of the system that any educator is in this position and I really wonder about our obsession with inclusion of people with SEN needs when this leads to such damage of those without.

None of this is your problem of course. I agree they should have phoned earlier and should be taking this extremely seriously going forward. I think there isn't much you can do anymore but if there was another incident I'd move your child. And just hope there isn't a similar kid in the next place.

@Dontlletmedownbruce The pre school may well be taking it seriously. We don’t know snd they cannot discuss the dc with the op. The nursery does have a duty of care to all dc and I agree that inclusion is not helpful to the majority but in the uk, Labour has doubled down on it because there’s no funding for any other model. Nurseries can ask very disruptive dc to leave although I’m not sure how many do this. I know funding is probably why they stick with the dc they have, but the issue of safety is paramount too.

All 3 year olds are fast and unpredictable, my SEN child had a great big chunk of hair ripped out by a neuro typical child when they were in preschool. The child had just got a younger sibling and was acting out. Knowing who the parents are is a good gauge of what’s going to happen in the future, in our case parents were nice people which put my mind at rest that it was unlikely to happen again, otherwise it can build up in your mind. But if your preschool aren’t meeting this child’s needs and there’s a risk of injury to the other children they need to get an EHCP and funding in place for 1:1 asap. My child had an EHCP at preschool, 1:1 doesn’t necessarily mean an adult on top of them the whole time, they can still somewhat explore independently with supervision and an adult with eyes on them whose purpose for being there is to support them. It depends how good your nursery is, it’s a lot of work so I can imagine this is why some very obvious disabilities aren’t being ‘picked up’ until school.

I’m not sure you should be allowed near children

??? For advocating for better resources? For suggesting better ratios so children are cared for and educated? For promoting inclusion in an appropriate setting? For sympathising with a mother whose child was injured? Enlighten me please

They sound shit. Move your child somewhere safer or you might regret it later. He will manage they are very robust at this age. Best to be safe than sorry

Sure….

I have no idea where you work but 11:1 ratio for preschool children is illegal in the uk as it’s unsafe.

It sounds like if you identify a child who requires individual support and you bother yourselves with all of that tedious paperwork and get funding for an extra member of staff they are used in your main workforce and not as 1:1 for that child.

You suggest inclusion is damaging to the other children. Being part of a community which includes disabled people damages no one, this is offensive. However….. poorly managed establishments and prejudiced people do, blame where blame is due.

And the gross statement of ‘hope there’s not a similar kid in the next place’. Perhaps ‘hope you find a better preschool with competent staff who have suitable training and experience to keep your child safe’ would have been better.

I wouldn’t move after one incident because you have no evidence to suggest anywhere else will be different and offer the protections you seek.

Children get hurt all the time by other children, there is no mechanism to guarantee this won’t happen.

Yoi should trust that the nursery are managing the situation in line with appropriate safeguarding. If you don’t trust they are doing that then that’s different.

how do they know which child did it if it was unwitnessed?

I was very clear I don't work in the UK and where I work 11:1 IS the legal ratio, the ratio in a room with a child meeting a threshold for SEN IS 1:8, the paperwork does not guarantee extra staff. There is no 1:1 ratio option. The system is terrible and makes the job virtually impossible. That was my point. A child with SEN cannot change to suit the environment, the environment has to change to suit the child. If a child is harming others that environment is no longer suitable. Having 1:1 hovering over that child and restricting them from being around others is a form of exclusion in itself. Allowing a child to be injured is a failure of a system. Children should not be disadvantaged by the presence of a child with additional needs and children with additional needs should have their needs met. For someone who shouldn't be allowed near children as you say I seem to have a lot of experience, perhaps from many years working in this field, perhaps something I learned in my degree in this area, or possibly through my training as SEN coordinator.

So the issue is the system and restrictions in your country of employment. It’s not perfect but much better to in the uk if utilised and implemented properly. As far as I’m aware this post is about a nursery in the uk.

For someone supposedly as decorated with experience and qualifications in this field of work as you, saying hopefully there isn’t a similar kid in the next place is vile and contemptuous towards the children. Blame should not be on them and how gross to hope they don’t exist in the next setting.

My sen child has never harmed anyone but was injured twice at nursery and preschool by neuro typical children were acting out for one reason or another, not because they were monsters, because they were 3 years old!!! Being so quick to jump on the Sen aspect for this age group is appalling. And my child has had 1:1 throughout their educational settings, as long as the adults eyes are on the child and they are close enough should they need support they can absolutely explore somewhat independently.

Often reading Mumsnet I feel like I must be the only person in the uk utilising the EHCP system correctly and tapping into the correct support for my child.

1:11 isn't illegal in England.
Our ratio for 3 & 4 year olds is 1:13, or 1:8 if there's no teacher present.

Apologies I was going by the standard 1:8 guidance. I know it depends on the area and what is available and in some cases there may not be much choice, but I’m shocked anyone would feel comfortable sending a preschool child to a setting with a 1:13 ratio 😱. That’s literally my child’s entire class size.

That's the norm in school nurseries.

@CanterThroughChaos There aren’t many EHCPs given to preschool dc and most go to disabled dc. The badly behaved ones just won’t and some will be a parenting issue. So a child who has violent tendencies simply won’t get a ECHP and extra money. They won’t get it in school either - well unlikely! We don’t know how often this child injures other dc. This incident could be one of many but I doubt it or parents would be talking! I think the nursery will have to work out what is safe play for this dc and have a management plan.

It is not offense to suggest dc with severe behaviour issues are in a separate setting. This has long been the case when dc are excluded. Their including is a danger to others and there’s a tipping point where safety of the majority prevails. I too believe these dc need a separate unit with higher staffing and we do still have special schools. These schools need extension to meet the needs of dc. They have the staffing ratios and expertise. They have teachers and are not solely staffed by nursery nurses. I think the government has no money but in education, such provision is sorely needed.

If you work in a specialist school, then you should know that it's impossible to guarantee that this kind of thing won't happen again. I've been standing right next to a child and them scratch another child passing by. They are super quick.

We had very detailed behaviour plans and four or five adults in my classes of eight children in our special school, but an absolute guarantee would never be offered. It's just not feasible.

I agree with a lot of your points, however the child described in the op has been identified as Sen, if this is legitimate and the parents and setting can evidence this and do their due diligence an EHCP in an early years is absolutely possible, it’s just not easy. I have been through this process myself and successfully achieved a good outcome for my child.

Of course there will be a minority of children whose needs are better met in a different educational environment, but it is very offensive to say inclusion in general damages others. My Sen child has profound autism and complex communication needs and is flourishing in mainstream with appropriate support. To suggest that their presence is damaging the others is extremely offensive.

Also these children are 3, acting out physically is pretty much in line with how a neuro typical child might behave at this age, very unfair for the setting to blame Sen when the lapse has been with them.

Eye opening 👀, my child is in a class of less than 15 with 4 adults- teacher, TA and two 1:1 staff. It must be so scary for some parents 😢

We have been in situations where we have absolutely had to do so for the welfare of the child.

It has involved utilising other spaces and staff.

Yes for the most part we can’t guarantee it won’t happen. When parents are threatening legal action and the child is extremely vulnerable/ unable to keep them self safe but in a class with children who are also vulnerable but may lash out and target that child, then yes you do.

The context here is with very young children - there is definitely more the nursery could do from what I’ve read of the incident. They haven’t reassured the parents that there is a risk assessment and behaviour plan; if there was, the previous one clearly isn’t working and needs to be reviewed.

Personally I would look elsewhere as the attitude of the Manager would not fill me with confidence that this kind of thing would not happen again. This is a safeguarding concern in my opinion as if they have identified a child with SEN but then do not support them and make sure no other child comes to harm is just lazy childcare.

@Happytohelp66 It’s not safeguarding. That’s different from a child with behaviour issues at 3. The dc should expect to be safe but NO setting can guarantee a child doesn’t behave like this. The only guarantee would be if the dc with behaviour issues is asked to leave.