Child attacked at preschool - need advice on how this has been handled

[Preschoolpickle]

My 3 year old has been attending preschool since January. He has settled in very well and seems to really enjoy it. My older child went there too and it has always been excellent.

Last week he was attacked by another child. The accident report says that it was unwitnessed by staff. It took them several hours after the incident (time written on the accident report) to phone me to let me know. The accident report followed later that evening. I phoned the GP for advice on his physical injury and they advised taking him to minor injuries, fortunately no lasting damage.

The manager informed me that the child that attacked her has SEN, and is ‘very fast and very unpredictable’, and has attacked another child once before and has hurt staff. This week I have been in for a meeting to discuss it.

My main concerns are the length of time between the incident and them phoning me, and the fact that this wasn’t witnessed by staff. Given that the other child is a known risk, it feels like a supervision and safeguarding failure that they weren’t being watched. In the meeting they advised that they would keep a closer eye on the child in future and try to keep them away from my son but they couldn’t guarantee it won’t happen again. I’m still worried, and I just don’t know what to do. I’m loath to move him when he’s so settled there, but I am concerned.

I could really do with some advice. In this situation, would you move your child?

That he had additional needs and had previously attacked another child, that they would not supervise him closely to avoid recurrence?

Most of that would generally be known and be alright to share. Them saying they can't guarantee it won't happen again is simply honest, you can never be certain of that woth any children.

The problem is that it just isn’t possible to watch every child every moment, even one with additional needs if they do not have funding for a one to one. There just aren’t the staff.

The last time I worked in a nursery there were twenty six children and two adults. One adult was changing nappies and dealing with toileting about 80% of the time. Leaving the other adult with all the rest. All it takes is for someone to fall over or empty a jug of water on the floor for a staff member to be distracted.

I’m surprised you say sustained. Is this your 3 year olds description? You say no adult saw whst happened and I don’t believe this would be the case with a sustained attack by a child they know has behaviour issues. It sounds more like a hard object was used and presumably broke the skin or bruised your dc. Thats horrible of course but some dc don’t have great behaviour at 3. I would now expect the nursery to keep a close eye on this child during play and craft work. I would also think they are not happy about what happened, so will be more vigilant.

Its certainly possible another nursery will have the same issues, and most nurseries for three year olds don’t have a qualified teacher running them.

It’s certainly the case there are more violent dc about and very very few with have a ECHP. As this isn’t compulsory education, being asked to leave is a possibility but nurseries won’t be free from these dc. It’s a growing issue. Neither of my dc in nursery or school had dc like this. Working in education before my dc were born and afterwards as a governor, these dc were quite rare. Now it’s different. The government should recognise these dc need alternative provision but they think the opposite!

Yes move your child. The staff clearly don't have the situation under control. Why put your child in harm's way again?

I’m sorry but there are absolutely nurseries where your child will not be at risk of physical attack from other children! Violent children however young may be asked to leave until they mature enough not to hurt others or until they can be cared for in a safer more staff intensive setting.

When inspecting nurseries ask to see the accident book, look around carefully and ask searching questions. Make sure that you turn up unexpectedly at least twice. Look at what is going on.

The is no funding for one to one or even enhanced ratios at nursery age. We are expected to care for some quite tricky extra needs in a 1:8 ratio (1:13 if there is a teacher). Incidents like this can happen in seconds, sometimes even with an adult close by. Some children have no obvious triggers and incidents happen seemingly out of no where. Staff can only try their best to closely supervise but there is a room full of children all needing care.

However, we would always inform a parent immediately for head and face injuries. Accident/incident forms would be written up immediately and if nobody had seen what happened we would put this and the time we’d noticed the injury.

Chatting with the room leader/manager is the best first step. There are rules in place about inclusion from the councils so exclusion at this age is unlikely unless they reach a point they can prove they can’t meet the SEN child’s needs.

working in early years and education there are a lot of unrealistic expectations on here!
yes staff can’t guarantee another child won’t hurt another. Even if a child has a 1:1 you can’t guarantee it, you can just reduce the likelihood. But you turn your head for a second, children are often quicker than adults and incidents happen.

like at home even with supervision of your own children you can’t guarantee they aren’t going to fall, have a fight with siblings etc.

That isn’t to excuse it and of course in an ideal world it wouldn’t happened. But Increased needs. Lack of resources, funding, staff, early intervention etc are leading it this being regularly occurrences in schools and nursery.

would we blame the parent of an SEN child if this had happened at the park?

I have a similar situation currently where a sen child is repeatedly targeting my DS. I haven’t moved him because the child receives 1:1 care and the incidents happen in the toilet or in a moment when playing together, so I don’t think there’s a lot they could do to prevent these.

If I was in your position where there is a known sen child who is at risk of harming other children without 1:1 care I would move.

If they agree to show you the accident book then definitely don't choose that nursery, that is medical and not supposed to be shared, except for the slip that goes home to an individual's parents.

You can't ask to look at accident books when looking around nurseries! They contain confidential information about children.

You can ask them their procedures and how they report accidents and incidents but you absolutely will not be allowed access to their accident book!

Where are these nurseries that expel children for hitting?

Where are these nurseries that show random visitors their accident books?

Agreed, they don't exist as you aren't allowed nowadays to do that. It's like how you used to have to be toilet trained to start school, but now they can't insist on that.

@itispersonal Many nurseries are private. They set their own fees and are not dictated to by local authorities. They can ask a child to leave but many give the child a very good chance to settle. I agree that many posters are not realistic.

Sorry, private or not that is incorrect.

If they accept Early Years Foundation Stage funding they have to conform to certain regulations and policies, including safeguarding and inclusion. However that does not mean actively avoiding supervising a volatile child at the expense of others’ wellbeing.

Really ?! My child goes to send school and she's had a few incidents where she's been hurt by another child (superficially Ur a scratch kick) and has hurt another child ,school inform me and it's generally accepted that most parents accept that these incidents can happen with Sen children regardless of how vigilant we are . They've never guaranteed that it will never happen again and I would be unconvinced if they did . Whilst they do everything possible to ensure it doesn't use remove a child displaying aggressive behaviours we are all only human beings .
Op at 3 the Sen child probably is only in the process of having his needs assessed and in all likelihood will need a 1:1 that they may it have the funding for yet .
It's a horrible situation, unfortunately alot of Sen kids shouldn't be in a mainstream setting because they're needs ar not being met and that's a disserve to all the children in the settings so I do sympathise. As a previous posters most child setting have a send children in them so it's a unavoidable issue until everythingbis reformed and the correct provision is given to every child .

@LIZS And they can also exclude and will have a policy on behaviour. They cannot discriminate on grounds of send but they can exclude. Safeguarding is not really about a child hitting another one, it is about safe recruitment etc in a nursery setting and possible adult abuse. Behaviour policies are intended to keep children safe from other dc. I don’t think anyone has said this child is being actively avoided in terms of supervision but at that moment, didn’t have close supervision. It should be the case that the nursery amends how the child accesses activities. 1:1 is clearly not possible, but being in a small group with closer supervision probably is.

Also parents cannot look at records a school or nursery keeps on other dc. So parents cannot ask to see records where dc are named. They can have general info on number of incidents and what they were but this doesn’t tell you what steps were taken regarding further issues if the incident was caused by a three year old. The behaviour policy will give a better overview on the strategies the nursery employs.

What actually happened? If it was unwitnessed how do you know it was sustained? Is this going off the word of a 3YO because at that age mine totally would have said ‘X hit me 100 times’ when that obviously didn’t happen but they were (rightly so) feeling the injustice but they were also prone to exaggeration because preschoolers be preschoolers.

Not trying to downplay the injury, because it’s obviously bad, but trying to get a sense of whether the nursery could have realistically done anything to prevent it. Because I think once the shock of it has all settled down that is the key point to consider. All nurseries will be at a 1:8 or 1:13 (if teacher lead) ratio. All nurseries will have preschoolers prone to outbursts including likely at least one SEN child. If the staff were actually negligent then yes you move him, but if it’s just one those really unlucky unpleasant things then it’d be pointless because it would be disruptive to DS and wouldn’t actually decrease the likelihood of a similar event in the future.

The child should be removed from the nursery. Accommodating children with SEN shouldnt be at the cost of the safety of all the other children. Their needs shouldnt trump the needs of the rest of the children there. I'd be furious.

In my opinion, this is on the nursery. My son has complex needs, and has attended nursery since he was 2. The nursery went through everything with me when I first enquired to check they could accommodate him, and even though they only receive limited funding from the council (I believe it’s called DAF?) , they have always given him a 1:1. Don’t get me wrong, we have had a very limited numbers of incidents where he has bitten another child because he was so quick and he is unpredictable, but 99% of the time they have been able to stop it, and when he has done it, they’ve removed him quickly before any damage is done other than a bite mark.
I was also turned away from a previously nursery (rightly so!) as they already had another complex needs child and therefore couldn’t safely accommodate another one.
I know they have to be inclusive but they also have to be ensuring the safety of both the other children, and the SEN child.

If you read the post from 6:48 (sorry won’t let me extract text) op suggests she was told it was a policy choice not resourcing. However, even so, the child should into be out of view long enough to make an unwitnessed attack. @Preschoolpicklehave you checked the relevant policies?

How long is long enough to make an unwitnessed attack? 30 seconds, a minute?

People definitely have unrealistic views of what a preschool or nursery class can provide in terms of supervision.
I'm sure even parents at home with 2/3 children take their eyes off them occasionally, try watching 8/10/20 children constantly while also doing everything else nursery staff need to do.
You can easily have more than one child who is a biter, plays rough or has SEN in a nursery class.

Indeed but in this case it was described as “sustained” which suggests more than a quick turn of the head to give attention to another child.

You really think staff are going to be constantly scanning the room other than a quick turn of the head to give another child attention?