Henry Nowak second thread, as requested.

[rolloverbeethoven]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5536249-henry-nowak?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

We agree on the incompetence.
I can see a knifeman would typical flee the scene,but the police should be familiar with those who blag it to their face.
Particularly incompetent was not assessing Henry for stab wounds diligently.
If the office had done an assessment of Henry it would have been apparent he had infact been stabbed. i. dont think we know the truth of why their was such a catastrophic error of judgement and i hope the investigation gets to the crux of this matter. Policing is a dangerous job of that their is no doubt, im a nurse and ive been assaulted at work i understand the trepidation of officers.

While attempting PCR, I believe.
The footage I have watched ends at the time they were calling the ambulance and one of the female officers stated "his pupils are not even reacting"
The other female officer did ask where he had been stabbed and tried, though not thouroughly, to check him. She says "but we have to check him, no?" or very similar.
This blade, let's think about it for a moment. Not sure if it was one of his beloved ones or the one to be carried with the Sikhh clothing, but the blade used (and all other knives, in my opinion) should be fully banned. It is very thin. The shape of the blade, and that the muderer used it well, is responsible for the low amount of external blood to the amount of wounds on this poor boy.
If there had been blood on his white shirt, it would have been a completely different scene to arrive to.
I hope somebody can engage a forensic expert on assessing this particular type of blade and its sale to the public.
Yet, the semiconscious victim was not resisting, had not left the scene or were trying to, stated that they had been stabbed. He should have not been handcuffed. There was enough calm and time and officers present to check him first.
It was prejudice. The officer assumed the situation was as he had been told. And that Henry was very drank, instead of dying, I think. He put him in the recovery position.

True. But I’d rather police focus on assessing a situation without overlaying it with I must treat people differently to ensure equality of outcome.

It should be without fear or favour.

It can mean that, though.

The below quote is related to the black guy who killed those beautiful students: Barnaby Webber and Grace O’Malley-Kumar, as well as the security guard Ian Coates. He should never have been free to kill them with his track record.

From an article about it in today’s Telegraph:

”The inquiry also heard that in 2020, mental health professionals decided not to section Calocane following a violent incident after they considered research that suggested young black men were overrepresented in custody.”

The police are to blame for this fiasco but the Gov makes the laws - companies and probably the police do equality training and training to stop unconscious bias etc etc etc which the Gov demands

it’s partly the ?public /Gov who have pushed for non racist behaviour and/or penalties for what can be considered racist behaviour. It’s wrong to make out it is purely a police problem

This is the Govs latest direction (only for Islamic religion) -

Guidance
A Definition of Anti-Muslim Hostility
An overview of the government’s new non-statutory definition of anti‑Muslim hostility, what it seeks to address and its intended application.

on the Gov website. Keir seems to forget about this when he rants at Elon

Concealing is bad enough but leaving another mother’s son to suffer and die without calling and asking urgently for a freaking ambulance is just horrendous.

Do you understand the difference between police and mental health professionals? Between arresting someone suspected of a crime or deciding whether to detain someone for mental health assessment?

'Allisnotlost1 · Today 17:28
I have read it. Do you actually know what equality of policing outcomes means? It means people being treated fairly, their rights upheld etc. It doesn’t mean they are not arrested, investigated, detained or charged.'

You're incorrect @Allisnotlost1 . Equality of outcome, to put it simply, means that everyone is engineered to end up in the same place at the end. No matter where they started. Extrapolate to policing and..

@PropertyD after wrestling the poor boy from behind the car they were obsessed with hand cuffing him: clearly weak and incapacitated , they say hes going to be sick and then the police officer said his pupils are not responding and call the ambulance.

Again I'd like to know how some posters can defend Henry being handcuffed clearly weak and fading / whilst after he passes away his killer is not handcuffed. Not hand cuffed.

I agree it could be worded better, but ‘equality of policing outcomes’ does have a specific meaning, which is different to the broader equality of outcome.

Regardless, what was lacking here was basic training/adherence to training, nothing to do with recent NPCC guidelines.

Actually I think it is.

Neither me or that poster were saying religious rights trump the law. Not at all. I think we were both saying that the actions of Henry Nowak’s murderer, who was a Sikh, should not affect the rights of all other Sikhs to carry a kirpan. And also, I’d argue that this actually serves to create otherness and foster division, which is in opposition to what you said.

I just can't stop thinking about this. The little details... the family clearing out his room at uni and finding his advent calendar with two doors open.

This is my view;

Every police officer present should face a criminal investigation f9 gross misconduct in office. Had they taken appropriate steps he would have died being believed in and not handcuffed with his rights being given to him. I cannot even begin to imagine how torturous his last moments were and I hope that his parents sue for those final moments of agony due to police neglect in my opinion ( even if not causative of his death).

The family who participated in concealing a weapon, lied to t(e police and delayed calling an ambulance shoud have the book thrown at them as had an ambulance been called immediately would he have survived? They shoud face the highest tariffs for their crimes.

The murderer should have lost the right to declare the weapon religious as its use was not religious and it ceased to be that the moment he used it inappropriately and not according to his religion. The penal laws need redrafting to not allow this to be used as a defence to going equipped. He should have served the full sentence for going equipped. The fact that he will not is not fair and not right. This is why there is so much anger and the Government can disingenuously plead for no division but they have created division by treating people differently,

Unless the law is reformed ( and this won’t impact any other Sikh unless they intend to murder) so that the religious artefact ceases to be as soon as it is used for murder so that the person gets the full sentence of 25 plus years or whatever ( as opposed to 20) unless that is changed people will continue t9 fell simmering anger that eventually might over spill to something more significant.

Overall an overhaul is needed for all laws to ensure parity and not advantage. All people in the UK should and must be treated equally and not preferred. Maybe preference was required in the early days of integration but now that is fuelling resentments etc. All people who are legitimately here and or citizens here are equal and must be treated equally in law. Clearly so:e accommodation is needed f9 the disabled but otherwise there has to to be equality.

So my view is:
There is no "division" on this issue- the entire Sikh community (who are one of the most respected and integrated of all ethnic minorities) are clearly not to blame for the actions of one individual.
Even the individual police officers are not to blame, they were simply following anti racism guidance indoctrinated into them since the death of George Floyd.

What is to blame here is institutional racism - official guidance from the police, media, Government attitudes that have created a situation where the police prioritised an accusation of racism over a dying 18 year old boy and to believe a person of brown skin over a person of white skin.

This "reverse racism in a desperate attempt to be anti racist madness " (hey look at me - I can't be racist because I discriminate against white people) now permeates not just across law and order but across employment, media, social media and Government attitudes.

You don't eliminate racism on one section of society by simply being racist against another section of society.

In stark opposition to what the official police guidelines says - policing and the law should be colour blind and everyone treated the same.

Several of the things you mention have already happened. He wasn't allowed
to declare the weapon religious.

The guidance is a huge issue. It is too complex for day to day policing. It contributed to this awful death, because people cannot apply it as officers. Their decisions are already very difficult.

I imagine it was drafted and put together by someone with good intentions. But the training cannot possibly cover something like this hideous murder. It should be withdrawn.

Barnaby Webber’s mother is talking about the findings from the enquiry and the failings and why the perpetrator was free on the streets.

Similarities with Southport and Manchester Arena. It’s political and systemic.

Well I would think that most of them are lawfully released or on bail. The criminal justice system is on its knees. The release provisions are having to manage lack of money and risk.

I don’t think it was that, more about a decision wrt over representation of black people guiding the outcome.

”The inquiry also heard that in 2020, mental health professionals decided not to section Calocane following a violent incident after they considered research that suggested young black men were overrepresented in custody.”

The carrying of the kirpan should be banned. I would have more respect for the Sikh community if they suggested and accepted this. Absolutely no need in the UK in 2026 to be using religious laws/rules to justify this.

I’m actually over all this pandering to religions because of their outdated rules and laws. I’m also over hurty words, when about religion/cultures, being prioritised. If every woman complained, stabbed, kicked, punched the men that had used insults or even sexually harassed them (not just hurty words) then the police would be overrun. I’m not saying it’s right that people are insulted but it does seem that religious groups are listened to and get more protection because of this. This is the UK, 2026, a country based on Christian laws but very liberal and accepting. Too many have come here wanting the benefits but expecting to retain their medieval and often very backward practices, their own laws, their own religious schools and expecting our laws to be adjusted to them and for us to fund this stuff. Anyone who’s been to Saudi or Dubai had seen the other side of this, it’s conform or get arrested. Why does the uk continue to seemingly value and make allowances for (to the detriment of our country) others religion and culture when it is so far from our own?

Well that’s irrelevant really. It’s about risk. Mental health services are not excluded from these problems. Though you might arguably have someone with more sensitivity and training to consider that risk, representation is marginal imo

It’s not irrelevant. It’s from the enquiry.

Inquest currently scheduled for 2027

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyv2ddgpn8qo

Yes to this.

As a previous poster has mentioned on this thread.

The Judge in this case went from a starting point of 15 years under Schedule 21 of the sentencing act.

The judge said:
"the murder did not involve taking a knife to the scene with the purpose to use it to commit an offence or to have it available to do so. It is possible that you had a good legal reason for having the dagger"

Why would Digwa carry this weapon unless he intended to use it?

The judge has started his sentencing at 15 years BECAUSE it was a religious dagger allowed by law in this country.

Because of that law, Digwa is now receiving a shorter sentence.

I wish Henry’s parents had said no to an audience with Starmer at Downing Street. It felt like a day out at a London landmark. My ire is not directed at Henry’s family, but the politicians. They could have made this a private visit in a less public place. That would have felt more meaningful and meant.

I absolutely detest politicians. It’s all about chancers, being seen to say and do the right thing, to claw their way to power or to cling on. Starmer is clinging on and all his weasel words trying to shift the blame to external forces like Musk are just more covering up on the total mismanagement of this country by his party and the party that was in power before. All of the establishment hate the British public. They like causes, minorities, other cultures - they are openly contemptuous of British lives. It is that attitude that is causing unrest in this country. Most people just want fairness and equality of treatment, but the pendulum has now swung too far in favour of minority interests and now we are destabilised.

The rich elite, of which Starmer and his ilk are (and Farage), can up and leave. The rest of us are going to be stuck here, in what is becoming a trash can for all the world’s detritus. We are the ones who are having to navigate a new way of living where the country you were born, the taxes you have paid, the rules that you followed, the values you were taught, mean nothing.

We are the laughing stock of the world.