Henry Nowak second thread, as requested.

[rolloverbeethoven]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5536249-henry-nowak?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

So what exactly do you mean by "all this DEI nonsense "? Is that the bit where officers are encouraged not to discriminate according to race? Isn't that what you want? Or is it only nonsense when the victim of poor policing is white?

The part where they are asked to treat people differently to ensure equality of outcome.

I don't think they saw it as an accusation to be investigated. They saw it as fact because they didn't want to be accused of being racist themselves. Remember 'believe the victims?' There it is, on video.

You mean like providing a sign language interpreter for a deaf suspect/victim? Or ensuring that female suspects are only searched by female officers? Or that people with learning difficulties or other vulnerabilities get a responsible adult during questioning? Or that the murder of gay men is as worthy of serious investigation as straight ones?

DEI nonsense like that?

Given we’re talking about Henry Nowak the impossibility of assessing a chaotic crime scene and treating people differently to ensure an equality of outcome.

It’s not doable hence the urgent review.

Yes definitely a little Prince element

It's absolutely doable to give any potentially injured suspect (or victim) a proper initial assessment for life-threatening injuries. Its basic first aid training, taught on any first aid course. There was no reason to either handcuff Henry or to deny him proper care. You dont need to scrap DEI to do it- they should have done exactly that and sorted out what happened afterwards.

Have you read the police guidance? Let me quote it for you.

Our commitment to racial equity means
Producing equality of policing outcomes for people from different
ethnic groups by responding to individuals and communities according
to their specific needs, circumstances and experiences, with
understanding that these will be racialised and with the aim of reducing
harm.
It does not mean treating everyone ‘the same’ or being ‘colour blind’ (racial
equality).

You can't have equality of policing outcomes unless you have equality of committing crimes amongst different groups. Plus, shouldn't crime be investigated on it's merits rather than with an eye on quotas?

I don't disagree but the Police get told many things by violent criminals, most of which are not true.

Yes doesn't cuff suspect, turns suspect over looking for stab wounds and the suspect takes out a knife and attacks said officer... we'd all be saying "why the heck did he believe him?"

Obviously in this case the poor boy was not violent or a criminal but they weren't to know that.

The evidence was there appeared to be no stab wound, they were responding to a reported racial attack, people who stab others, don't tend to hang around the scene of their crime.

Treating everyone equally is all very well and good but given many cases of racism and assaults within many Police forces, before any changes in recent guidelines, i wouldn't want to go back to what we had before.

Aside, if the Police had a recruitment problem prior to this incident, they certainly will have a huge one now.... who would want to be a copper now a days?

One error of judgment and you re toast.

It’s being assessed and I expect the police feedback will inform it.

i take your point about the risks officers face in dealing with the public who have been accused of wrongdoing but 3 officers arresting an 18 yr old saying repeatedly that he had been stabbed and couldn't breath warranted a more professional response and closer examination for injury than "i dont think you have mate" surely?When Henry said he had been stabbed and 3 officers were present to arrest him ,surely professionally trained officer could have checked carefully for injury whilst being wary of an assault on them ? Im not saying it isn't dangerous and difficult work, but this was so dispicably woeful, we cannot accept it as good enough regardless of recruitment problems.
Equal treatment and policing without fear or favour is essential.
Racism or prejudice toward any person isn't solved by more racism .

@Alexandra2001 he was wedged behind a car and they dragged him to wear they handcuffed him .
He was clearly weak and incapacitated.

He had plenty of opportunity to stab them had he wanted too. So I don't undertsnd this argument or reasoning at all.
The killer of course was bouncing around physically fit. ....

And why then didn't they handcuff the suspect by then ??

Why after this poor boy died did the main suspect remain uncuffed ??

@allthingsinmoderation

The problem with Alexandra argument is that they still did not ,did not handcuff the killer !! And let him choose food in the kitchen ???

The killer who we know is obsessed with weapons !

People are letting the police off two easily. They could have dealt with the racism lies (as per their policy) after they responded to the stab wounds.

They chose to pander to the random bystanders, failed to get any statement from the (fatally wounded) man on the floor before arresting him, and treated him with complete disregard and the male mocked him. He was a racist, so any stabbing or breathing difficulties wasn’t a priority for them, only Digwa.

The dad(?) even said at the start he’s bleeding or whatever, and they ignored it!

Yes, they cuff the young man accused of racism, who’s incapacitated on the floor without a weapon - but don’t cuff the knife maniac killer. Make it make sense

No the part specifically relating to race and the guidance not to treat all races equally and not to be "colour blind":

Yet they happily let Digwa wander around the police canteen, uncuffed and unrestrained, when they knew he'd stabbed and killed Henry.

They didn't see stab wounds because they barely looked for them, because they started off from the position that he was a liar. Because he'd been accused of racism.

Oh yes 100% i'm arguing against the racism allegations, to me its incompetence, blinded by the initial control reports and what they saw on the scene.

Normally, the knifeman would run, this man stayed, making his despicable allegations, they took everything at face value

The "i don't think you have mate" was a comment made because the police officer didn't think he had been.

A catastrophic error of judgement but not atm, a racial motivated one BUT there is an inquiry.

There were 23k assaults on Police Officers in 2014/15, decade later this figure was 55k.

I have read it. Do you actually know what equality of policing outcomes means? It means people being treated fairly, their rights upheld etc. It doesn’t mean they are not arrested, investigated, detained or charged.

An example of treating people according to their needs might be ensuring a detained man is searched by male officers, if his religion or culture requires it. Or that a woman has access to an in-cell toilet or sanitary products. Or that someone allergic to or unable to eat or drink certain foods has access to alternatives if detained for a long time. Wouldn’t you want your rights upheld if you were arrested or detained?

You might argue against that, but at least do it understanding why it matters that people’s legal rights are upheld when they are being investigated detained by the state, and why it matters that they feel they are upheld.

The crime scene wasn’t chaotic though was it?! The police said it was in their defence before they caved in to demands to release the bodycam footage. It was quite calm, no shouting or struggling. The only struggling was poor Henry trying to breathe.

Dear god I don’t know what to hope for. Imagine if it’s the case that Henry’s injuries were survivable and police action killed him? This whole case is unbearable

Are you saying they KNEW Digwa had stabbed Henry yet they offered him some food and made a big fuss of making sure he wasn’t offered food his religion didn’t allow?

It says a lot about Digwa that he had an appetite after stabbing someone multiple times and watching them die on the concrete.

Could I ask. When did the police realise that Henry had been stabbed and by this scumbag?

Let’s not forget that before any 999 call was made Digwa filmed Henry and told Henry he hadn’t stabbed him. The judge didn’t allow this footage to be played in court as it was too distressing. It beggars belief that someone would do this.