Labour Isn't Working - Thread 30

[WaffleBomb]

A chat thread for those who don't like this Labour government. 💙

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5506586-labour-isnt-working-thread-29?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Conspiracy theories abound, once people buy into them there’s no way out. Because everything is part of it.

@EasternStandard yeah it just feels like people get madder every day here
Thank goodness for this thread

Then again, I was also thinking, in real life I am an anxious person but looking at stuff on here makes me look pretty normal!

@justasking111 Trump Derangement Syndrome.

There was an meme thing I saw with a little capsule, the top half was red, I think the lower part was just flesh coloured, and there was a yellow Donald Trump wig sitting on it and it said "take this to cure TDS " 😂

Yes I think the unions/council over time tried to found ways for jobs that were largely male dominated to have basic wages boosted significantly. In any event the council lost the legal challenges and have had to pay all the costs that come with that. My argument about EDI is that it has existed for years but did absolutely nothing about the lack of equal pay in their own organisation. So what exactly were they doing with their time. What bigger issue was there to deal with?

@Pacificsunshine I likewise understand why some people think the sweeping change Reform offers is needed, but won't vote for them myself. I'm pretty worried about what will happen if they get into majority power. Sweeping change (from either side of the political spectrum) is unpredictable, and rarely ends well. (less worried at the prospect of Reform than the Greens though)

I really like Kemi too, and will certainly vote Conservative. Despite Johnson's failures, I think the Conservatives are the UK's only real hope for the next 10 years not being an unrelenting hell which leaves the UK permanently diminished - all the worse for being self-inflicted and completely predictable So I really hope that in the 2-3 years she's got, she can get people to trust the party again. I think her clear ideas and her willingness to say what she believes - before it's popular - helps establish her credibility. She drives ideas, rather than being blown by the wind like the leaders of the other parties are.

@SapphireCasino - it's what's known as indirect discrimination in the Equality Act. Where there is a policy that is applied to everyone but disadvantages a group sharing a protected characteristic. To a certain extent, it does make sense: for example it's clear that having a single shared changing space would have more of an adverse impact on women than men, even though the same rule applies to both. A requirement to do overtime on specific days could be more of a problem for people adhering to certain religions. I think it's a reasonable protection, to include indirect discrimination in law.

I haven't looked into the Birmingham case, but there have been many landmark cases related to jobs which are considered equivalent difficulty and worth - but which are in practice quite gendered, and where the women's jobs have been paid less. I think it does need to be considered in the context of women's jobs being consistently undervalued over a very long period of time.Research has shown that when women start becoming predominant in a previously male-dominated job, that actually triggers the de-valuing of that job - sex discrimination in the workplace is that embedded.

@strawberrybubblegum

thanks that’s a much clearer explanation than my attempt!

I’m v grateful for the background to the reasons for the bin strike in Brum. 👍

But what was really bothering me was who, if anyone, was taking away the rubbish. The best I could find was this:

https://mhclgmedia.blog.gov.uk/2025/04/17/update-on-birmingham-waste-dispute/#:~:text=The%20government%20has%20been%20working%20with%20the,to%20return%20to%20normal%20levels%20this%20weekend

It still doesn’t say who’s actually picking up the rubbish or who’s paying for the disposal of it.

@CandidLurker @strawberrybubblegum i'm familiar with the indirect discrimination argument but a lot of of it seems tenuous

Best example I can give is from the West Wing - because we all love a fictional example 😂 but it's quite a good one to use because it's easier to think about when it's abstract

So does anyone remember Toby arguing with his ex-wife over the issue of mandatory minimum sentences for drugs and whether or not they were racist policies? My answer is no of course not. And, was her name Madeleine, would argue that they absolutely are.

were Birmingham Council actually looking for ways to boost the salaries of men on the grounds that they were men?

Maybe they were, I don't know. It's always hard to get information in such complex cases and to be honest, I'm not going to look further into it but from what I've seen, I've yet to be convinced

The religion example given is a good one - I don't care what religion you are. If the job involves overtime on particular days, can you do it or not? That's all I care about. I genuinely think that's all anyone should be concerning themselves with. Creates jobs though.

@DenizenOfAisleOfShame I imagine the council are paying the bill for private contractors to pick up the rubbish

I know residents have been told to take stuff to the tip more, but I'm not clear who is staffing the tip.

I agree that your West Wing example shows a real problems with going too far. That's pretty much exactly what the Sentencing Council tried to do by publishing guidelines for judges to consider an offender's background—specifically race, religion, or minority status—when determining sentences. Mahmoud blocked it, thankfully.

For the equal pay for equivalent jobs, the Equality Act specifically talks about "work rated as equivalent". This isn't the DEI over reach we've got used to. I do think it's right in the context of how people behave.

You ask "were Birmingham Council actually looking for ways to boost the salaries of men on the grounds that they were men?" I think subconsciously they probably were. Because deep down, many people (both men and women) believe that men are worth more than women, simply for being men. They sometimes don't even realise that's how they are making decisions, but they are. You see it in for example the Walmart class action suit (settled in 2011 - but looking histically - and using their anti-discrimination laws) where someone defended paying the men more "because he has a family to support".

@DenizenOfAisleOfShame - I think it's a bit of a mix, with people doing whatever they can. I have a relative living there who takes rubbish weekly to another relative's house to dispose of.

I think the issue with the bin strike is more that if you start giving something extra, people quickly feel entitled to it and it's very, very hard to roll it back.

Hence our spiralling Welfare bill...

I haven’t followed the bin strike but for all the criticisms of other parties Labour get a free pass on here over it. Anyone else and it’d be talked about.

And on spiralling welfare bill yes once people receive something that proportion grows and is leant on and it’s very hard to remove.

@strawberrybubblegum oh My, I was spitting expletives when that Sentencing Council thing got discussed! I'm not a swearing person. But that…

I will have a look at Walmart at some point and see how it compares

I also thought that Birmingham Council introduced a convoluted bonus scheme because they were having trouble recruiting refuse collectors

In a normal world, I think they should be able to raise the pay if there is a shortage. Again there is so much information around. I'm not sure I've got that right.

I don't want to take over the thread with discussions about bins! I'll stop now.

they've been filling potholes here, presumably because of the election. I don't think they will do mum's road because it's a smaller one. We first reported those problems in 2023.

Also in mum's road, her neighbours have left in and they told us it had been very stressful for them and they said it's something to do with the renters reform bill. Going to be staying with their parents for a while they figure something out. The property going to go on the market as the landlord doesn't think it's wise to rent any more.

There’s going to be a parliamentary vote on whether Keir Starmer should face a sleaze enquiry.

It won’t get anywhere. Labour MPs know all too well that forcing Starmer out by themselves after the locals will be better for them than the lingering embarrassment of Starmer being judged by a committee.

Good. If Labour MPs say no it’ll look bad, if they say yes in he goes.

The Labour MPs have been whipped to vote against the enquiry.

Wow what’s there to hide huh?

Starmer doesn’t like scrutiny.

Starmer has changed his tune since the Johnson years hasn't he!

Now the bollard has been revealed as a lying toe-rag, there's a three line whip! Cf.

Tomorrow looks interesting.
Barton at 9am, McSweeney at 11am, then the debate in the afternoon. 🍿 🍿 🍿

Stamer is holding a pointless COBRA to look important, and pretend that he's doing something about the ME crisis. Bless.

At least Johnson turned up and it was some parties by other people not appointing Mandelson.

What a coward Starmer is.

That COBRA thing is hysterical! Who does he think he’s fooling? What an absolute grandstanding, pointless prick that man is.

👏 👏

Tick tock Bollard. 😁

Let's hope the King can sort out the mess Bollard created across the pond too.

Interesting reading all the posts re the bin strike. Some interesting info there.
I find it amusing that that area has been Labour for <pinches nose> four...teen....years. 😂

There were reports of secret meetings taking place between Unite and Reform on plans to end the strike. One to watch.

Plus council tax in Brum has been increased by 17.5% over the past two years. Not sure quite what the 1.1 million residents have to show for that.

They have the fattest rats in the kingdom

Ha yes supersize rats