Why do men like this woman so much and women don't?

[Pjy]

I'm interested from a kind of study of the human condition pov, it's interesting to see the different ways people respond.

She's a woman I know through a sport. She's pretty good, but not outstanding. Works hard and deserves what she achieves. She's friendly and sociable, can perhaps be a bit opinionated, but nothing extreme, much less so than some men! She's "ordinary" to look at. Not unattractive, maybe a bit plain and doesn't seem particularly interested in her appearance (a good thing in my book). She's clean and presentable, but not glamorous or interested in clothes and makeup, not the obvious type to gain male attention iyswim.

She's very popular with men. I'm not saying the fancy her (maybe they do, I don't know), but they seem to enjoy being around her, respect her ability and training in a way they don't other, sometimes more successful, women.

Women, including me, just find something a bit off about her. I can't put my finger on it, I don't dislike her, but she's not someone I want to be friends with. Some of the other women really dislike her, but also can't really explain it.

Is it as straightforward as a bit of jealousy, or something else?

It's personality. Most (not all before anyone starts) men actually are attracted to that first and foremost. They might enjoy eye candy but the women who actually get their attention are the ones with a strong personality. A woman with a strong personality or a big personality will never struggle to find a mate regardless of her looks.

Sounds like me. I’m class 1 autistic (Asperger’s as was) and when I don’t put much effort into masking I think a lot of women find something a bit off about me, although I’m polite and friendly. I get on better with men (not all men) and the occasional woman I really click with.

I can also mask very effectively and fit right in with the women, but it’s tiring and boring for me, and probably boring for everyone else as well as I’m very “default human” when I’m like this- nothing particularly interesting to say, because by definition I’m just reflecting back what the people I’m with have got to say and acting NPC. I’m much more interesting when I’m being myself.

The way you all keep discussing her looks is very odd and sounds like social norms of 50 years ago. I can imagine my mum describing someone as “not much to look at” and she’s nearly 80.

“She's friendly and sociable”

I really think this is it.

And there's always an element of 'why should she get the guy - she's not all that'.

It's almost like looks aren't everything that matters? Shocking to some people, I guess.

Not unattractive, maybe a bit plain and doesn't seem particularly interested in her appearance (a good thing in my book)

what on earth does this mean, why is it a good thing she’s not interested in her appearance, what difference does that make.

this statement tells me it’s pure jealousy. The men like her and they like her more than you.

"The way you all keep discussing her looks is very odd and sounds like social norms of 50 years ago. I can imagine my mum describing someone as “not much to look at” and she’s nearly 80.In society, I think women regard looks to be a lot more important than they were 50 years ago."

I am of the older generation, and how a woman acted seemed to be a lot more at the forefront in other women's minds than how she looked...and that wasn't always a good thing.
I feel sorry for women nowadays and the pressure many are under to look a certain way.

The woman the OP is talking about sounds delightful, maybe the men are drawn to her because she has more to offer than a pretty smile and fluttering lashes.

Maybe she's just charming and since you all don't think she's anything to look at, particularly, you haven't considered that some people just have a charisma about them that attracts others.

Edit to add: this is the case with some actors/actresses who aren't nice to look at, really, aren't brilliant actors but have charm so are liked by many

She probably gives off a sensual vibe which isnt the same as being good-looking

Speaking Entirely for myself,she sounds like the kind of outdoorsy, sporty, apparently invincible type of girl that massively intimidated me at school since I was chubby, neurodivergent geek.

Even at fifty I get the shudders when I meet these type of women - it's not particularly fair or reasonable of me and I'm sure if I was to meet them 1-2-1 there would be some I get on with, but my visceral reaction is not positive. That said I wouldn't go round bitching about someone unnecessarily and definitely see it as a 'me' issue.

If only this behaviour ended after the playground years.

Or she is just nice to be around, nothing to do with sensuality or sex appeal.
Sounds like she has charisma; some people have it some don't.

I wonder how would you describe yourself in comparison and how you think males feel about you?

Despite your apparent suspicion of her she sounds
Healthy, Confident, Relaxed and ‘self determining’

Maybe she’s ND. Often NT people just don’t like ND people and can’t explain why

I think many schools did nothing to deter those feelings.
I was sporty and confident, but I always felt the school's 'tradition' of the best players picking their teams, always leaving the less sporty girls to be picked last, was mortifying for them.

That feeling probably stays with some kids for life.

It does sound like jealousy because she's not any kind of problem and yet you're all finding her 'off'. It's the men's attitude towards her that seems to bother you most, not her, and you're jealous because you can't fathom it. In short it's you, not her.

I don’t think it’s particularly mysterious.

Men are much simpler on a social level than women: it’s mostly superficial and what you see is exactly what you get. Many women create barriers because they’re expecting levels of meaning, nuances, deeper reasons for things, or because they’re expecting men to decipher layers of code.

Men deeply value status symbols because they are signals to other men, and enviable wives and girlfriends are symbols of their ability. They also will have sex at any opportunity. Being plain is not a barrier to a sex life for a woman.

Women also signal to each other through clothes, nails, hair, makeup, handbags though they will claim this is patriarchal oppression. That’s typical of the layering of meaning - it’s not necessarily that women are trying to be mysterious or complex, or nuanced or disingenuous or whatever word you put on it. It’s just that their psychology is not as straightforward. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

When a woman doesn’t follow fashion, wear make up, etc, she can be admired on one hand but also instinctively distrusted because she’s clearly transmitting that she’s not one of the group. Queen bees and their followers will tend to be much more attuned to those kinds of signals because they’re in a hierarchy.

Another aspect of women’s group dynamics is that the group cohesion can depend on who is excluded from the group, so being able to instinctively select an agreed outsider is a trait that builds strong social networks.

In men’s dynamics, hierarchy and inclusion is primarily related to masculinity. It’s unusual to be excluded from the group, as lower status males are needed to bolster the rest. The exclusion is from masculinity itself. Proof of masculinity is required constantly. Where women and girls require constant proof of friendship, men can go months without talking, but still consider themselves friends.

It’s also not common for autistic girls and women to find male friendship easier, and find that other girls or women dislike them because they’re subtly transgressing signals.

Perhaps they like her because she's fun.

My money would be on running.

If there was a male teammate who all the men liked would you think to be surprised that he wasn’t better looking or a higher performer?

I don’t understand why it matters to you that she’s friendlier with the men than the women.

It’s not uncommon that in a group of people an individual gets on better with some people than others?

Why do you or the other women have to like her just because she’s the same sex? The whole OP is kind of odd.

Swap it around.
Why do women gravitate towards male friends and want to be in their company?
It's not the best looking ones or the ones who are particularly clever, it's the nice, funny, easy to get on with ones who treat them with respect and don't try to run the other men down to make him shine brighter.

I was discussing more audhd which is very different from just having adhd. Although masking often brings quite extreme reactions in both esp when coupled with RSD.

And as you would see I was discussing female group dynamics rather than individual women.

it would be interesting to see how RSD slotted into this with adhd don’t you think.

Thinking about it, it’s prob one of the reasons TRAs so actively targeted autistic girls!

But coming back to the “pick me culture” you and your daughter thinks exists (it would help here if you could contextualise why you were discussing it) it logically makes no sense.

It’s a very high risk strategy which would have limited success rates you would think regarding finding a mate given the socially expected markers for maximising chances of finding one. It would make even less sense in groups not looking for a mate as it would be high risk but no reward.

What makes more sense is creating a fear of being ostracised and ridiculed by the group for acting against the female group norms and hierarchies. That’s the way these things are maintained. It’s essentially shouting “heretic” at the female hierarchy non- compilers. It’s a classic modern day example of the demonisation of those acting outside social norms. How do you feel about the witch hunts of the early modern period in Europe as there seems many parallels here with the “pick me culture” accusations?

I think that's merely an observation that people are more alert to this possibility than they might once have been. Far more is now known about it. 'Jane' doesn't sound in the least socially awkward to me, but if this makes people pause and consider how they treat others (as opposed to merely being judgemental), it's perhaps not a bad thing.

I don't in any event equate being autistic with being 'off' - it's quite clearly the behaviour of some of those surrounding this woman that's off and not the other way around.

Women, including me, just find something a bit off about her. I can't put my finger on it, I don't dislike her, but she's not someone I want to be friends with. Some of the other women really dislike her, but also can't really explain it

I feel sorry for this woman.

The reason why you and the other woman dislike her is because she's getting male attention without putting in the extra effort that women are taught is expected. She's not dolling herself up to look ultra feminine in the way that men like. She's not exceptionally talented or the Head Girl type material. She's comfortable.

No, even the men say that she's plain. So even though they like her, they're not particularly nice about her

Can I say how grim it is that they're discussing her appearance in this way as a group. What kind of toxic hobby is this??

… you can’t sit down with the guys without them bringing her up. It’s probably good ol fashioned jealousy then OP.