Lying brother - don’t know how to respond to this new disclosure.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

Lying here awake as my head is all over the place.

Some of you may remember my thread a while back about how I was supporting my brother who landed on my doorstep in a mental health crisis expecting me to look after him for as long as it took (he has had depressive episodes before and decamped to my parents for over a year on more than one occasion). I connected him with our local mental health services whilst he was with us but also gave him a deadline as to how long he could stay with us (a couple of months). He eventually told some friends of mine he was going to hurt them and I took him straight to hospital where he disclosed he thought he was going to hurt my DD (16). The hospital rightly responded to this by raising a safeguarding concern.

He was admitted and eventually transported back to his hometown where he was under the psychosis team and eventually admitted to a psychiatric ward for some months where he underwent ECT. I still supported, attending his weekly ward meetings online, liaising with his medical teams, his employer, making practical arrangements, keeping his flat clean (which was a mess due to serious self neglect) and visiting in hospital (it’s a 6 hour round trip so couldn’t go often but when I could).

The safeguarding referral resulted in me being interviewed by children’s social care twice and having my fitness to keep my DD safe questioned; insinuation was that I somehow should have known my brother was a danger - which I didn’t until he disclosed it (I had still insisted to my brother that he couldn’t stay long term as it was having a negative impact on my daughter (who has ADHD and was preparing for her GCSEs) and husband (who had recently gone through his own metal health crisis), but physical danger hadn’t occurred to me). They also contacted my EXH (DDs dad) and asked if she could live with him if I “prioritised my DB’s needs” which he revelled in. They also spoke to DD’s school, and eventually DD. They were ultimately reassured that I was capable of protecting/prioritising my DD and that her and my brother would not be under the same roof again - on that basis they saw no need for any further action. It was a horrible time, with me feeling intense guilt about a) allowing DD to be put in a position of potential danger, not that I was aware at the time, and b) knowing that my brother had nobody else to turn to (parents are now very elderly) other than me for support and I said no (well, no to the support he wanted, which was to stay with us long term). I also had to have some very difficult conversations with DD, her school, my EXH. It also affected DD - only the other day she was asking again why he was going to hurt her and I explained that he was very sick and not himself - and who knows the impact it had on her exams.

He was very recently released from hospital and just this past fortnight has made a miraculous recovery - which I'm putting down to the effects of the ECT taking hold. I was so incredibly happy to see that he was doing so much better.

I got a message from him last night telling me he had made up the disclosure to hospital about hurting DD so they would take him seriously and give him some help/admit him. I don’t know what the hell to feel about this?! I suspect he’s saying this in the hope that say, “ah well in that case you can come back to ours to visit” (he used to spend a LOT of time at ours, in hindsight he was very reliant on us), of course that’s not going to happen, for a start social services would take an exceptionally dim view of this, god knows if he’s telling the truth now, or if he was telling the truth then? But if it was a lie, does he realise what the fall out his original disclosure had??? The shit I had to deal with, the shit DD had to deal with??

I’ve left him on read as I don’t know how to react to him. I’m now in a position where I feel as though I can’t be anything but nice to him about it due to the fear of him relapsing into depression if I do anything other than that. But I’m SO angry with him. I know he was sick when he said it, I’d come to terms with him saying it as I believed he wasn’t in his right mind, and actually came to see his original disclosure as his way of protecting her against himself. But now I’ve been told that he made it up, well, it seems very calculated and with no consideration of the impact it would have on DD and me. There’s no remorse in his admission - no apology, just a statement of fact.

He wasn't actually sectioned - his admissions have always been voluntary.

It is entirely possible that your brother is both mentally ill AND an abusive narcissist, with behaviours learned from you abusive father.

It is not your job to fix any of this. Please don't move them all close to you, you will make your life so much more difficult. Drop the idea, they won't push it themselves

Have you ever had any therapy? Could you afford it? I really think you need some support on untangling what is going on here and putting some boundaries in place that will keep your own little family safe and well.

Do they give ECT on a voluntary basis? He presented as seriously unwell with an extremely recalcitrant depression (I presume) to get ECT. He may be choosing to lie about how much of his treatment was chosen in order to preserve his wounded ego. Better to say he lied snd tricked everyone to get what he wanted than to admit his behavior was so vile and out of control that he was on track to be either arrested or sectioned if he did not voluntarily surrender.

i'd re-think moving your parents closer. you might think it will make your life easier by reducing distance. is it not more likely that it places you at their beck and call?

they all sound manipulative with one thing in common, which is to make you the whipping lass for their wants and blaming you when they have a bad day.

distance is your friend - physically and emotionally.

I remember you well, glad to see you've managed to maintain boundaries that are healthy and you're very situationally analytical in the best way for the circumstances. I don't have any advice just wanted to say hi and give you some positive observations 🤗

Deemed as inferior ... by him? So your brother is, in your male relatives' view, more important than you? (despite the fact that your job ^actually makes a solid immediate difference to peoples' lives, unlike, I'll wager, theirs).

Your father and your brother both are willing to throw your daughter under the bus here, as well as you.

Your father and your brother both are willing to throw your daughter under the bus here, as well as you.

That's about the size of it.

I feel angry on your behalf OP. How dare they treat you like this. Don't worry about any name calling. Being called a bitch is what happens when you stop being a doormat. It's a sign you're no longer complying and nor should you. You're worth ten of them.

Just wishing you a happy birthday OP.

Without wishing to minimise how distressing this is AT ALL, I think grey rock would be a much more effective and safer way for you to engage with all 3 of them than ending up upset and hanging up on them.

When someone is emotionally abusive, whatever words you use around that, they are not going to be curbed by you convincing them that you are feeling hurt by what they say, or seeing that they've upset you. It's the equivalent of telling a school bully that they are hurting your feelings, or bursting into tears at something they've said. Both of these are very ineffective strategies for the bullied child. It sounds to me like you are stuck in a cycle of replaying a similar dynamic over and over.

Whether you go low contact, stop seeing them, whatever, is less important than shutting then out of your emotional life. They don't need to understand your feelings, that just gives them ammunition to hurt you. Going forward they only need to be informed of what you are going to do, and what you won't. Channel "because I said so". Stick to it, don't let them talk you round or upset you. Fall back on SS as an absolute requirement that DD must be kept away from your brother. End of. Anyone's feelings on the subject (including yours) are beside the point. It's like a fixed point in time in Dr Who, some things just have to happen.

With the house move I would suggest quietly dropping the rope, stop looking at houses for them, visit a bit less often without DD, stop being the organised one driving it through. See what they do.

So your brother has had the best of teaching from your father hasn’t he.

The further the distance between you and them, the more joyful your life will be.

💐

There is a very toxic family dynamic here-your brother is an 'academic', like your father, so everyone must bend over backwards to protect him because he is a genius and very special. You are just the staff who needs to do all the grunt work and doesn't need any thanks!

I wouldn't move them any nearer to you, I don't think it will make your life easier.

Then you need to stop OP. Stop feeding this nonsense. He has all the support he needs, you need to take care of your literal child. I’m sorry to say this but you seem to be so much more focused on your brother’s mental health and well-being than you are on your child’s. It must have been so traumatic for her witnessing all of that, hearing her uncle wanted to hurt her, being interviewed by SS, being in the middle of her parents’ arguing over it all and having school know. And you’re still focusing on your brother! Spending so much time cleaning his flat, visiting him etc etc. It’s unbelievable.

I'd say that to them

I hope you are ok, OP. I don't think you should be a carer for your mum, your dad or your brother. I do think you are already a carer, for your daughter, who will need you as I suspect what she's seen and heard will have been deeply traumatic.

I think you can't have your mum and dad near to you. I know this sounds heartless but it is not- you can't stop your mum being depressed, you can't stop your dad having a personality disorder, and it is not your responsibility to stop your brother breaking down or to help him get his job back on track, it is all not your responsiblity!

Please get the book 'Let Them' on audiobook and a paper copy (it's only out in Hardback) and listen and read it many many times. You are not putting on your own lifejacket here and you are not putting your daughter's on either- you need to limit both your contact and responsibilities for caring to your highly dysfunctional family and leave them to get on with it. You have notified social services (adult) about your mum and you need to leave it to them to sort the situation out.

You are both the whipping boy and the carer in this situation as if you are not a person in your own right and it makes me sad to read this, as you sound wonderful and I don't want your life or your daughter's life to be eaten up by their dysfunction.

You need to learn how to love them, but from a distance. Buy the book, it's as if it's been written for you.

The AA approach, which is loving detachment, may help you a lot also, you are kind of addicted to 'helping' but its bottomless, no one thanks you, and it hasn't made any of them better behaved or healthier or less depressed. Stop cleaning, stop listening, just stop the whole merry-go-round. Let them get on with their lives, listen on the phone, put it down if they are rude, and start planning how to keep your and your family sane amidst all this (you may need therapy for yourself/and your daughter).

Thank you for the recent advice (Kat'sPJs - frankly you can go swivel, I'm not even going to point out the inaccuracies in your post).

I'll definitely download that book @FlyHighLikeABird.

I am still getting calls and messages from my parents, mainly about completely unrelated topics which, in the main, I am ignoring. I did call my mother back to essentially tell her to tell my father to stop calling. TBH I lasted 30 second before my DH had to take the phone off me - he then proceeded to tell them there's no way I am going to be able to have any form of conversation with her until she acknowledged the impact of all of their behaviour. If cognitive dissonance was an Olympic sport she'd win gold; she's been saying (on the phone to DH and via text) how DD and I are so very important to them, but any reference to my father's behaviour (whether it by historical physical violence, emotional blackmail etc.) is always responded to with a "well, I wasn't there to witness that so I can't comment" or "I actually think you'll find it wasn't 1/2 as dramatic as you are saying it was".

My father then insisted on speaking to DH, just to talk about DD's exams, oh yes, and how we absolutely have to travel up to see them this week as he needs me to help him with his computer.

Anyway, I had a lovely birthday out with friends for drinks.

Very good OP! Just keep hauling up the drawbridge and filling the moat with alligators. Safety for you and your little family comes first. But look out for the “extinction burst” which is your parents and your brother ramping up the coercive/abusive behaviors that have eorked for them in the past. They will agitate to get you back until they learn that the old ways don’t work.

@inigomontoyahwillcox I hope your DH told your obnoxious father that you absolutely weren't travelling 250 miles to fix his bloody computer!

You've had some great advice on here. I echo it and especially STOP facilitating your parents' move nearer to you. It will be a disaster. Keep them at arm's length and if necessary use DH as a go between, so they can't guilt trip you.

If you haven't already done so, I would arrange some therapy asap for you and for your daughter.

she's been saying (on the phone to DH and via text) how DD and I are so very important to them, but any reference to my father's behaviour (whether it by historical physical violence, emotional blackmail etc.) is always responded to with a "well, I wasn't there to witness that so I can't comment" or "I actually think you'll find it wasn't 1/2 as dramatic as you are saying it was".

Wow. I hope seeing how she minimises your very legitimate feelings is making it easier for you to disengage.

I'm so glad you are putting in boundaries, I'd go so far at to block them all for a while and see how you feel after a couple of weeks of no contact.

I really hope you and Dh are putting the brakes on their house move.

Odd how these super academic geniuses can't sort out their own computers? Can't your brother do it for him if he can't? Though if asked I'm sure it would be beneath him and something you are more suited to. In which case he can pay someone local to him to do it. Don't be sucked in!

Unfortunately, my father received a diagnosis of mixed dementia (vascular and Alzheimer's) yesterday, so, regardless of the fact that the behaviour around his expectations of me/favour of my brother that he is demonstrating now (as well as the other forms of abuse over the years) is nothing new (but most likely exacerbated by the condition) I can't expect any form of resolution with him - not that I was expecting to be able to rationally talk about it with him. My mother is desparate for reconnection with me, and I am not willing to just abandon her when she is facing her future (othewise alone) as a carer to someone who has always been a very difficult (abusive) man (she is older than my father but physically and mentally much healthier).

What I need to do is lay down some very strict boundries both with myself and with them insofar as the support I am able to provide. Of course, I will be considering the/negating any impact on DD and also communicating and demonstrating to her the compromise that I now need to come up with when it comes to compassion vs. obligation/manipulation.

I am not even thinking of my brother at this stage. He has enough support in place. In one way he's done me a favour as it really has made abundantly clear how the men in this family are prepared to throw the women under the bus for their own needs. There's no going back from that understanding and I will try to get some therapy for myself and DD (both she and I have had a lot of therapy in our time, but I don't think more could hurt, especially after recent events).

You are doing the right thing. Just get therapy if you can to unpick your own childhood of neglect and abuse as well as to support you as you support your mother. Try to get her as much external support as you can. But stay strong in protecting yourself from their drama and their neediness. Your mother is “desperate “ now so she can choose to make up with you/respect you/favour you if she wants.

Demand better treatment from her. Every time you demand respect it models for ger how she can demand respect or at least assert emotional independence from her abuser.She can use this experience to help her put some boundaries down in her life with your father and it will do her good.

One thing about therapy that I don't think is talked about enough is how draining it can be. Unpacking boxes that you've had in the storage of your mind for years can be HARD on your emotions and energy. I'm not saying that it's not worthwhile, I'm saying pick your battles. You sound like you've got a LOT on your plate at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised if you are quite low on energy and wrought out emotionally at the moment, so if don't feel that your need for therapy is urgent, I'd suggest that it goes on the "that's a thing for another day" pile. (Edited to add: I see you're a seasoned pro at therapy, so you'll know this first hand!)

If you can get access to somebody to talk to about how hard life as a carer is (like a carer support group or very specific counselling) I would say that could well be the place to focus your own support needs at present. And you will need support for yourself, it's just as important as support for your mum.

While I'm on the subject... It's also time to really ramp up the self care. I'm not talking bubble baths and nail appointments, I'm talking make sure you're eating a fairly balanced diet, trying to get enough sleep and rest, having an exercise and a mindfulness practice, getting out in daylight every day, that sort of thing. Buy whatever you need to make these things easier - I recently had the "epiphany" that while things were this hectic, I'm just going to buy almost all of the veg I need frozen, not fresh. I'm also buying frozen chips and jacket potatoes, and steamfresh bags of frozen veg and microwave rice, where normally I'd cook it all from fresh, but right now what I need is things taking off my plate, and yes actually, that really does include chopping onions.

I know from experience that it's so easy to drop appropriate care for yourself things as the first thing to go when things get hectic with caring for your parents, but you wouldn't try to run your car without fuel and oil in it, don't try to do the equivalent with yourself. If not motivated for yourself, then motivated by the fact that a burnt out and gravely ill you is no use to your mum or your daughter.

So is your mum!! Why on earth are you putting yourself out, moving a horrible man near you, and effectively keeping him and your brother in your (and therefore DDs) life for a woman who is horrible to you and has allowed and taught you to accept being treated this way. She minimises your abuse and is rude to you about it and she is actively cruel and pushing you into trying to earn her love and respect. Yes she’s been abused herself but that’s not your job to fix and it isn’t your fault.
I actually think you need to step back from all 3 of them.
your brothers admission is irrelevant, perhaps he meant to hurt dd or perhaps was just saying it, either way he did hurt her, just not in the way he described. He shook her stability, risked her home and family and scared and intimidated her.

maybe he realises it was terrible to say and he’s saying he didn’t mean it so you won’t judge him, or maybe he didn’t really mean it, you’ll never know. What you do know is that he is unwell and he doesn’t appreciate your help. He is not your child he is not your responsibility and you do not have to fix his mental health. Next time you can sign post him, and offer to call people or do nothing at all. You can do the same for your dps. You do not have to serve these people. I know you don’t be able to disengage that easily, but I just wanted to say it so you know.