Lying brother - don’t know how to respond to this new disclosure.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

Lying here awake as my head is all over the place.

Some of you may remember my thread a while back about how I was supporting my brother who landed on my doorstep in a mental health crisis expecting me to look after him for as long as it took (he has had depressive episodes before and decamped to my parents for over a year on more than one occasion). I connected him with our local mental health services whilst he was with us but also gave him a deadline as to how long he could stay with us (a couple of months). He eventually told some friends of mine he was going to hurt them and I took him straight to hospital where he disclosed he thought he was going to hurt my DD (16). The hospital rightly responded to this by raising a safeguarding concern.

He was admitted and eventually transported back to his hometown where he was under the psychosis team and eventually admitted to a psychiatric ward for some months where he underwent ECT. I still supported, attending his weekly ward meetings online, liaising with his medical teams, his employer, making practical arrangements, keeping his flat clean (which was a mess due to serious self neglect) and visiting in hospital (it’s a 6 hour round trip so couldn’t go often but when I could).

The safeguarding referral resulted in me being interviewed by children’s social care twice and having my fitness to keep my DD safe questioned; insinuation was that I somehow should have known my brother was a danger - which I didn’t until he disclosed it (I had still insisted to my brother that he couldn’t stay long term as it was having a negative impact on my daughter (who has ADHD and was preparing for her GCSEs) and husband (who had recently gone through his own metal health crisis), but physical danger hadn’t occurred to me). They also contacted my EXH (DDs dad) and asked if she could live with him if I “prioritised my DB’s needs” which he revelled in. They also spoke to DD’s school, and eventually DD. They were ultimately reassured that I was capable of protecting/prioritising my DD and that her and my brother would not be under the same roof again - on that basis they saw no need for any further action. It was a horrible time, with me feeling intense guilt about a) allowing DD to be put in a position of potential danger, not that I was aware at the time, and b) knowing that my brother had nobody else to turn to (parents are now very elderly) other than me for support and I said no (well, no to the support he wanted, which was to stay with us long term). I also had to have some very difficult conversations with DD, her school, my EXH. It also affected DD - only the other day she was asking again why he was going to hurt her and I explained that he was very sick and not himself - and who knows the impact it had on her exams.

He was very recently released from hospital and just this past fortnight has made a miraculous recovery - which I'm putting down to the effects of the ECT taking hold. I was so incredibly happy to see that he was doing so much better.

I got a message from him last night telling me he had made up the disclosure to hospital about hurting DD so they would take him seriously and give him some help/admit him. I don’t know what the hell to feel about this?! I suspect he’s saying this in the hope that say, “ah well in that case you can come back to ours to visit” (he used to spend a LOT of time at ours, in hindsight he was very reliant on us), of course that’s not going to happen, for a start social services would take an exceptionally dim view of this, god knows if he’s telling the truth now, or if he was telling the truth then? But if it was a lie, does he realise what the fall out his original disclosure had??? The shit I had to deal with, the shit DD had to deal with??

I’ve left him on read as I don’t know how to react to him. I’m now in a position where I feel as though I can’t be anything but nice to him about it due to the fear of him relapsing into depression if I do anything other than that. But I’m SO angry with him. I know he was sick when he said it, I’d come to terms with him saying it as I believed he wasn’t in his right mind, and actually came to see his original disclosure as his way of protecting her against himself. But now I’ve been told that he made it up, well, it seems very calculated and with no consideration of the impact it would have on DD and me. There’s no remorse in his admission - no apology, just a statement of fact.

I would take it that what he told you and hospital staff at the time was true at the time and that he posed a risk to your friends and daughter then and could again in the future if he became unwell again or stopped taking his medication

Oh yes, absolutely. Regardless of whether it’s true or not, he will not be coming back here.

Gosh, what a dreadful situation. My heart goes out to you.

I don't think you'll ever really know whether he was lying before or is lying now. I get that he's your brother and you love him, and also that he of course can't help his mental illness. But he has either been manipulative in the past and caused enormous difficulties for you in the process, or he is lying now and minimising what was a genuine risk to your daughter. Either way, one of those is calculated and proves that you cannot trust him.

You need to put your daughter and your own family unit first, and support your brother at an arm's length (if at all - there's no obligation to help him). You've done so much already and had your own lives almost blown up in the process - you mustn't feel guilty for saying enough is enough.

I would tell him what he has put you through and make it clear you can no longer support him in any real sense because you need to prioritise the well-being of your daughter, yourself and your husband. Do not take a single step to respond to him in the same ways that you have in the past- taking responsibility for him, taking him into your home, looking after him. Let the professionals support and help him now.

Thank you @OneHundredDays- that’s exactly it, either way, I can’t come to terms with his actions. There’s no good way of looking at this.

Even if he is telling the truth now, I wish he hadn’t told me. Regardless, he wasn’t/isn’t going to be around DD (well, for as long as I have some element of control of the situation and she doesn’t want to see him - she’s almost an adult now), so it’s made absolutely no difference other than me being insanely upset/angry with him (and then feeling guilty about feeing that as he was/is ill).

If he was able to act rationally and say and do all the right things, he wouldn't be mentally ill. I have a brother with mental health problems. He has phases of being better and phases of being worse. Overall, his mental health has declined over time. What he says is based on what he feeling at that moment. It isn't always based on reality. I don't take it personally as he can't help it. I don't see him any more because he can be violent. It is very sad.

I remember your thread, OP. I really felt for you at the time. So much pressure from your DB.

I'm not sure I could have been as generous as you in the first place, so this may not be too helpful, but I'm not sure I'd entirely take the be nice route. I understand why it would be unreasonable (or, at least, not good for him) to rage at him like I'd want to but I think I would have to be quite matter of fact with him about the impact of his declaration.

You don't have to be nasty about it, but you don't have to tell him it doesn't matter. It does. I think pointing out the impact puts your cards on the table so he knows where he stands and means you don't have to pretend so much.

Tell him about the involvement of SS, and the very difficult position it put you in. And say for that reason and because, since you know he's prepared to lie to manipulate people to get what he wants, you cannot be sure he's telling the truth now, you can't just roll everything back and pretend it wasn't said.

Yes, maybe I have to accept I’ll never know the truth, that his condition makes him unreliable when it comes to the truth, that he may or may not be potentially violent (but have to assume yes). But I can’t keep loosing sleep, my sanity, my family’s wellbeing in response to his ever changing needs or demands.

Thanks @RawBloomers- it’s going to be gut wrenching but I think you’re right. Right now I don’t trust my own ability to go to one extreme or the other (either be super understanding because of the guilt I feel, or loose my shit with him because of the anger I feel), so will leave it a few days to get my head together before responding as you’ve suggested.

@inigomontoyahwillcox ok breathe

The time and effort you have generously given your brother is the stop now. Enough. For your sake. There is only so much you can put up with.

And you might like to consider telling your brother that. Somehow.

No more cleaning, visits, medical communications.

100% H and daughter now.

Personally I would tell daughter that “what DB has said was all a lie can you believe that, to get medical help, or perhaps this is a lie to worm his way back in, who fucking knows? I am telling you this my precious daughter as a warning a life lesson if you will about men. Do not get sucked into their manipulation- it seems they will lie and lie to get what they want with no thought or consideration to the females in the family because we are what fucking service humans. So never, never be fooled, never be cohered or blackmailed or manipulated- just walk away like I am doing. And thank god you don’t have a brother”

Then send him a message

“Dear Bro, I don’t know and don’t care anymore if the hurting DD was a lie or if this is a lie now. It has gone way beyond mattering. The ramifications of the possible first lie are on going for us but in particular DD, they could have an effect which may change the course of her life, she’s only 16.

But I can’t do this anymore, this latest possibly truthful disclose possibly not, I don’t care, is the straw that broke this camel’s back. I wish you all the best going forward but enough now. You have taken everything from me that it’s possible to give I have nothing left”

That’s not exactly the message I would want to send, this is the polite version.

As for you @inigomontoyahwillcox look at it as a gift from him for you to release yourself from his chains. Whatever you do will never be enough, it won’t ever be acknowledged or thanked. He is a man who will use anything or anyone he can to get what he wants, your parents, you and now your daughter. He has given you the key to the lock of these chains.

(you sound amazing by the way a tower of strength, filled with love and devotion, time to divert amazing you towards the people who do love and appreciate you)

Unfortunately, he reaps what he sews. The truth is irrelevant at this point. I think you have been an amazing support to him, and in some ways it will be easier going forward because it isn't your decision whether to have him anywhere near your family.
Your anger is completely normal, and as difficult as it must be, you can't let him know.

Perhaps his illness didn't allow him to think of consequences. In his head he probably thought he was protecting everyone (knowing how difficult it is to access inpatient support) and saying that was the thing that got him the help he so desperately needed.
That's not to downplay the affect of what he said has done to you and your family, just that I don't think he did it with malice.

I feel for you. It's possible your brother doesn't know himself why he said what he said. I'd take it as part of his condition and make yourself and family safe first. You can support by just being there and he may need advocacy at points. Some meds also affect people.
I don't think the phrase ' not prioritising your daughter ' is very helpful. There should be a recognition of the dilemma you are in and a more helpful tone. It's not easy to draw some lines much as we do it.

I think the response has to be that it doesn't matter if it was a lie, unfortunately words have consequences and it caused a lot of additional stress for everyone involved. He needs to focus on staying well now so there is no repeat. And you understand he was not well but he needs to understand that the consequences of that time are that he cannot go back to how it used to be.

And the point @RawBloomers makes is important that you can’t just roll everything back and pretend it wasn’t said.

I think maybe my mistake in all of this is considering him to be capable of rational and normal behaviour and placing the same expectations I have on everyone else onto him. There are elements of selfishness, manipulation and dishonesty to him and these may well be part of his illness. I just need to try to persuade myself that I don’t need to sacrifice mine and my families wellbeing to accommodate it, regardless of the cause.

Lie or not, he said it so safeguarding / social services have to treat it as if it is true and they've been very clear that you have to choose DD over DB or she'll go to her dad.

Absolutely - actually a really helpful point to make - the messsge yesterday doesn’t rewind time.

Or those traits might just be him and he’s not a nice person at all. You’ve done enough for him. I honestly would be going extremely low contact.

I remember your thread. What a nightmare he has put you through. It’s completely understandable that you’re livid! I think maybe just don’t respond to that at all. Not everything requires a response, as they say.

If you want to keep it as neutral as possible, you could say something like “thanks for letttng me know. As it has been logged by the hospital and social services as a safeguarding issue you’ll appreciate that it still means that it’s not possible for you to come here, but I’ll look forward to seeing you [next week] as planned. Glad you are feeling so much better.”

Whether or not he made it up originally, the result was that he DID hurt your DD. And you, and your family.

thats reason enough to reduce your involvement in his life. I can imagine how difficult this is, because you love him and it’s likely his illness that is making this happen. But he hurt your daughter. Draw the line.

the suggested loving message upthread is good.

Perhaps you could speak with a carers charity and get some guidance on the best way to establish your boundary with him while making sure he knows you love him but can’t be involved any longer?

I'm sorry. I remember your threads and you handled it with grace in the most exceptionally difficult circumstances. I have a relative with mental health difficulties, not to the same extent, and they are deeply unreliable narrators of their own lives. They say things that are provably untrue but you cannot convince them of that and they would swear on a bible that it is true. Then in a different phase they will say, of course I always knew that wasn't true. It totally messes with your head.

The only way I can navigate it is the realisation they have a different relationship with 'truth'. They mean what they say absolutely in the moment but when they are in a good period they are just a totally different person. It really is Jekyll and Hyde. For my relative, it is manipulative but isn't malicious if that makes sense, it's survival instinct and people aren't always real to them.

For me, I don't hold these things against them in the way I would with a mentally healthy and neurotypical person. However, I also have to have strict boundaries to protect me. I can fully believe in the moment he was telling the truth about hurting your daughter and now is fully telling 'his truth' that he would never do or think that really.

You have every right ro be angry, every right to be hurt, every right to be desperately sad. For me, I have had to come to the place where I would find sympathy for someone who can't live in/ trust their own mind but still set clear lines that he cannot come near your home.

OP, I am so sorry he caused you so much trouble.

IMO, he did mean it at the time but now that he is feeling better, he can’t envisage himself meaning it, so he has come up with some other explanation.

You or I might look back on a bad hairstyle and cringe about what were we thinking. But he can’t accept that he did think that, so he’s looking for a way to reconcile his “I’m a good guy” narrative with his past actions.

I might be right or wrong, but whatever the truth, this man caused you and your family huge distress and would do so again (indeed, is doing so now) because he doesn’t have the capacity to care about you and yours in a thoughtful way,

Crumpet’s message is good but I would omit the “softer” ending and just write: thanks for letttng me know. As it has been logged by the hospital and social services as a safeguarding issue you’ll appreciate that it still means that it’s not possible for you to come here

This seems very sensible advice.

Mental health issues have a way of spreading out, beyond the person who originally has them, to everybody else who cares about or has contact with that person.

Ultimately you have already gone way above and beyond what I would expect a sister to do for a brother - the level of support you have already provided must have been very difficult for you and damaging for every other part of your life.

I would respond, very calm and clear. The key points he needs to know are:

• he threatened to hurt multiple people, including your daughter. Maybe it was true at the time, maybe it was not, but you can never know for sure and so you can never trust him again. He will not have any contact with your child, and you will now only see him in public situations where you can feel safe.
• you provided a lot of support last time he had a mental health issue (list it like here and make clear how much of your time and energy it took) but you will never be able to do that again as it was too damaging to the rest of your life.
• you love him, you will support from a distance (set out what that might look like), and you are glad he is doing well now, but he needs to be prepared that you will never offer that same level of support again and he will never stay in your home again.

Then be ready for any pleading/pressure and hold your boundaries!