Lying brother - don’t know how to respond to this new disclosure.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

Lying here awake as my head is all over the place.

Some of you may remember my thread a while back about how I was supporting my brother who landed on my doorstep in a mental health crisis expecting me to look after him for as long as it took (he has had depressive episodes before and decamped to my parents for over a year on more than one occasion). I connected him with our local mental health services whilst he was with us but also gave him a deadline as to how long he could stay with us (a couple of months). He eventually told some friends of mine he was going to hurt them and I took him straight to hospital where he disclosed he thought he was going to hurt my DD (16). The hospital rightly responded to this by raising a safeguarding concern.

He was admitted and eventually transported back to his hometown where he was under the psychosis team and eventually admitted to a psychiatric ward for some months where he underwent ECT. I still supported, attending his weekly ward meetings online, liaising with his medical teams, his employer, making practical arrangements, keeping his flat clean (which was a mess due to serious self neglect) and visiting in hospital (it’s a 6 hour round trip so couldn’t go often but when I could).

The safeguarding referral resulted in me being interviewed by children’s social care twice and having my fitness to keep my DD safe questioned; insinuation was that I somehow should have known my brother was a danger - which I didn’t until he disclosed it (I had still insisted to my brother that he couldn’t stay long term as it was having a negative impact on my daughter (who has ADHD and was preparing for her GCSEs) and husband (who had recently gone through his own metal health crisis), but physical danger hadn’t occurred to me). They also contacted my EXH (DDs dad) and asked if she could live with him if I “prioritised my DB’s needs” which he revelled in. They also spoke to DD’s school, and eventually DD. They were ultimately reassured that I was capable of protecting/prioritising my DD and that her and my brother would not be under the same roof again - on that basis they saw no need for any further action. It was a horrible time, with me feeling intense guilt about a) allowing DD to be put in a position of potential danger, not that I was aware at the time, and b) knowing that my brother had nobody else to turn to (parents are now very elderly) other than me for support and I said no (well, no to the support he wanted, which was to stay with us long term). I also had to have some very difficult conversations with DD, her school, my EXH. It also affected DD - only the other day she was asking again why he was going to hurt her and I explained that he was very sick and not himself - and who knows the impact it had on her exams.

He was very recently released from hospital and just this past fortnight has made a miraculous recovery - which I'm putting down to the effects of the ECT taking hold. I was so incredibly happy to see that he was doing so much better.

I got a message from him last night telling me he had made up the disclosure to hospital about hurting DD so they would take him seriously and give him some help/admit him. I don’t know what the hell to feel about this?! I suspect he’s saying this in the hope that say, “ah well in that case you can come back to ours to visit” (he used to spend a LOT of time at ours, in hindsight he was very reliant on us), of course that’s not going to happen, for a start social services would take an exceptionally dim view of this, god knows if he’s telling the truth now, or if he was telling the truth then? But if it was a lie, does he realise what the fall out his original disclosure had??? The shit I had to deal with, the shit DD had to deal with??

I’ve left him on read as I don’t know how to react to him. I’m now in a position where I feel as though I can’t be anything but nice to him about it due to the fear of him relapsing into depression if I do anything other than that. But I’m SO angry with him. I know he was sick when he said it, I’d come to terms with him saying it as I believed he wasn’t in his right mind, and actually came to see his original disclosure as his way of protecting her against himself. But now I’ve been told that he made it up, well, it seems very calculated and with no consideration of the impact it would have on DD and me. There’s no remorse in his admission - no apology, just a statement of fact.

I also agree with this, I think long-term you could end up in a difficult (ie emotionally strained) position if you don't address this. I empathise with your brother's desperation to have his crisis taken seriously, but his shortcut led to serious consequences for you and your DD and I think you could say that to him - that you understand why he did it, but the impact means that you can't go back to how things were previously. I'm sorry OP this is a heavy burden for you.

Yes. You are 100% right here.

I remember your other thread and how caring you were to someone who potentially could be dangerous. What a slap in the face to you now! You have had a lot of good advice already. All I would add is, step right back. No more visits or advocating for him. Don't reply to that message right away (if at all). My take on it is he's preparing you to give him a place to stay when his life goes belly up again. I have a cousin with quite severe mental health and he would rock up at mum and dad's talking gibberish and demanding things mum and dad couldn't offer. They eventually stopped answering the door to him. I think you need to metaphorically do the same.

It's enraging but I think all you can do is try to park it in a small box. Don't let yourself waste any more time trying to analyse what he is or isn't thinking.

You helped because he needed it and you did lots of meaningful, good things. You made the world a better place. Him having insight into that or appreciating it would be better and well deserved, but even without it, that doesn't reduce the meaning or value of what you have done for him. And now, permanently, he can't come back into your house because safeguarding. Not your problem, not your choice to agonise over, it is out of your hands due to social services involvement.

Maybe send a quick one liner saying you're glad he is feeling so much better. If he responds remind him that coming back to yours is not an option because of the social services involvement. Do not engage in any conversation, or even debate to yourself, about whether he meant what he said about hurting your DD. It doesn't matter.

Personally I couldn't get over this. It is selfishness of the highest order. All he thought about was himself, nothing about what the fallout would be for you.

Don't try and reason with unreasonable people.
In your shoes I think send back something neutral. " good to know" covers a lot.
Huge step back from it/him. If he did lie, it shows that he could say anything to anyone to get what he needs.
If he tries to take more of your boundaries " I have to follow social service rules put in place because of your actions"

I remember your old thread, it was difficult to read and you had unanimous support. It really was becoming a case of "setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm" except that he wanted you to set a few people on fire while he sat on an ice block so you'd never generate enough heat for him anyway. You must feel so betrayed by this latest message.

I agree with the pp who said that it's a lesson that some people / men are manipulative and we have to protect ourselves. Ultimately you're not in control of his decisions so you can't take responsibility for the consequences. I hope you're able to step back now, and stay back when he next looks for your attention. We know that the system will hope you always step in. Maybe before the next crisis you can think about how to yourself from that position and have a few phrases or mantras ready. Maybe tell his team about this message and remind them that he can never be near your daughter. I wonder if you can get some support yourself to unpick the situation and your feelings over what's his illness/what he's in control of/what are your priorities and responsibilities.
Best wishes.

Another problem is that I’m in the process of moving my parents down here; they need practical support; my mum was severely depressed as my dad has got significant cognitive decline (currently being assessed), his baseline behaviour now being exacerbated by this and was for all intents and purposes keeping her prisoner (to the point he was freaking out if she left the room). I spoke to adult social care who arranged for a respite carer to come in once a week so she can get a few hours of her life back (and do some shopping). So they will be moving to my town (currently about 250 miles away and I can’t keep going up there) when I find a place he will agree to (or he declines to the extent he hasn’t got capacity) as he has to have the last word and is coming up with insane reasons why the houses I suggest are ideal are not (e.g. it’s on the wrong side of the road - I kid you not). So, if I go low/no contact with my brother, I may well end up in a situation when they have him staying with them to visit and me/DD having to avoid him somehow.

Sorry - am just brain dumping on you all now.

I got a message from him last night telling me he had made up the disclosure to hospital about hurting DD so they would take him seriously and give him some help/admit him.

What this message means is that your brother is still a deeply disordered personality and he is still a danger to your family. You cannot protect him from his own depression or from other unhappiness, these traits are deeply baked in to his personality. ECT may lift his depression but it can't fix the rest of his mental illness or disorder. Also the benefits of ECT may not last long and he may sink back into depression whatever anyone does.

The cleaning is not a petty issue, it shows that your DBro is still not grounded in reality and he is not able to deal with other people normally.

Continue to protect your DD and look after yourself even though this limits the help you can give your brother. You're entitled to be furious after all you have done for DBro but at the end of the day it's not even about blaming anyone, it's about accepting that you can't fix him and you can't solve his problems and it's about protecting yourselves. You have really gone above and beyond for him and his behavour shows that can't go on. I am very sorry you are in this situation, we have something a bit similar in my extended family, they have had to totally cut contact with one family member for their safety and it is just horrible for everyone. Be kind to yourself.

Thank you all for such clear insight, it’s helping me step outside of the guilt and see the situation for what it is. To the poster who said I’ve not really stepped away from the caring role - you’re right - funnily enough his mental health team at the hospital invited me to join a “caring for people with psychosis/depression” online course, which I politely refused as I did not want to label myself as his carer. My mum laughed and said the invitation was ridiculous as I wasn’t caring for him - but in actual fact, I was, albeit from a distance the majority of the time.

I don't think it really matters whether it was true or not at the time, and it probably wasn't an either/or situation. I agree with others that you have to go low/no contact, I am so sorry for your situation, it must be absolutely horrendous, but I think if you are determined to stop the cycle as you say then that's the only option, doing anything else would be continuing it.

Absolutely - someone mentioned above about talking to DD (now 17) about this in the context of not allowing myself (or her) to be manipulated by this behaviour. I’m worried that he will bypass me and try to ingratiate himself back into her favour by directly contacting her and using similar tactics as he’s doing with me right now.

SS would not be impressed by your brother being in direct contact with DD. Highly recommend she blocks him in every way possible!

I’m sorry you have been stuck in such a very difficult situation. But this is probably his mental illness talking. Anyone who so much hinting at the possibility of harming my child would be done. Out the door, no sorting out their stuff, no further communication, dead to me for the rest of their lives. My children always come first, even as teens and young adults.

To give you an example, my mum is in a relationship with a man who is a convicted paedophile. She facilitated his contact with my dd. Now I have no reason to believe my dd was harmed. But she could have been and she probably would have been in the future if I’d done nothing but pander to them. I cut them both off. I’ve never seen my mum again and nor have my children (she is still with this man and he has abused others since they have been together). Her choice to make, but the consequences are we are finished. Neither of them will ever be around my children again and I do not expend any energy managing their affairs, providing care, whatever. They’re on their own.

Please put your dc first and do not continue to pass this on to another generation. It stops with you so you can keep them safe. It should be very easy to block him on everything. Any contact, you both need to report to the police.

Just saw your post about your parents. You need to think about maintaining your boundaries with your parents too espeically your father.

If your brother is likely to move in with them then stop trying to move them closer to you and your family. Him moving in with your parents may be even be a partial solution to some of the problems of their care. Not an ideal soution, but family things are not always ideal.

I remember your previous thread and have a very similar brother. I also remember that you were experiencing your own health issues, I hope you’re doing better now.

You say he has miraculously recovered, which means you have to acknowledge that manipulation and selfishness are likely personality traits (this is similar with my brother). He is able to continuously act in his own self interest to extremities without any concern for how that impacts you and your family. Stating that he would harm your DD suited his goal at the time, now saying it was a lie suits his wants. In both scenarios he’s trying to manipulate you or those around him to do what he wants, whether or not he is fully in control of this really doesn’t matter as it has the same impact on you.

with kindness, I think it’s time to take a step back from him. I really do understand the guilt you feel, but you have to prioritise yourself.

So did your mum laugh in support of you, or laugh because she agrees with db and thinks you do nothing?
if it’s the latter, I would be so upset, and it would cement my belief that your parents are the reason he believes your his support human.
the way they are treating you is also appalling, the ingratitude for all that you do is so evident

I'd be fucking furious. Is that supposed to be better? He decided to make his sister and niece think that he would physically hurt them. That it wouldn't fuck with your daughters sense of safety in the world that her uncle would hurt her?

And yours?

I'd tell him that he has put you through hell, and if he thinks that now being all "ONLY JOKING" is anything like an appropriate thing to say, then he's just made it worse.

I would cut him off.

You sound like a lovely sister, but you have done your bit now.

Screenshot the message. Stay firm that he is not allowed under your roof under any circumstances. If necessary meet up with him in very public places for a very short time.

Time to step back, and concentrate on yourself, and your family.

Bringing your parents closer and then have DB staying with them will make an impossible situation for you.
You need to step back on both fronts - your parents as well as your B.
It doesn't sound at all like anyone appreciates your efforts or your position and feelings. And given the situation with SS you need to be very careful.
Find your anger and give up your carer guilt.

OP, I'd respond to him and say that while you're very glad that he's doing better and that he never really felt he may hurt your DD, unfortunately the result of him claiming that was heavy involvement from social services which means that he will no longer be able to spend time at your home.

Regardless of whether it's true or not, his actions have had consequences.

All incredibly difficult.

But what Social Services have done for you is put up a boundary to protect your Dd. The fact is that she was already affected before the physical harm threat. As creeps up on us when we are pulled in different emotional directions under the strong pressures of obligation, duty, guilt etc.

The SS intervention and decisions mean that you are protected from having to make a decision about whether he is ‘safe’ or not. It’s irrelevant. He can’t be in your home now, whatever the answer.

So I would pretty much disengage from any reaction. Just say ‘your MH is between you and your HCPs, good luck with ongoing recovery’ or something.

Step back from the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt)

This, and wonder if that’s their plan, they move to you, he moves in with them and to take on responsibility for all of them?

OP you have already gone above and beyond in helping your brother and he does not seem to even appreciate the huge support you've been. Regardless of what lies he has told, I agree with all the comments that you need to put a boundary down and stop supporting him.

I also just saw your post about your parents moving near you. I suspect this is not going to happen, your father will block it. The nature of his illness means he will deteriorate, possibly rapidly, and at some point in the not too distant future he'll need to move to a care home.

You need to think about how much support you want to give to your parents, as that support could be needed for a long time. My mother lived for 10 years after her dementia diagnosis.

I understand he's your brother, but for your daughter, husband and yourself, you have to step back. I don't think you will ever know if your brother is a danger to your daughter or anyone else, but given what he said during his MH crisis, I think you have to assume he was telling the truth at that time. In which case, you can no longer have your brother in the same room as your daughter, let alone living with you. The risk is way too much.

If you wish to visit him, that's entirely up to you, but going forward, he never sets foot in your home again and has no contact with your daughter.

Whatever trust you did have with your brother is now gone. I think you have to be honest. What he told the authorities has led you into being questioned over your ability to keep your daughter safe. Regardless if he meant the comment or not, he made it. As far as SS are concerned he is a danger to your daughter, and for that reason, he will never be allowed to visit or stay with you or have contact with your daughter.

If that honesty causes him to be upset, then I'm afraid that's too bad. That may sound harsh but your daughter's welfare comes before him, it's that simple.