Lying brother - don’t know how to respond to this new disclosure.

[inigomontoyahwillcox]

Lying here awake as my head is all over the place.

Some of you may remember my thread a while back about how I was supporting my brother who landed on my doorstep in a mental health crisis expecting me to look after him for as long as it took (he has had depressive episodes before and decamped to my parents for over a year on more than one occasion). I connected him with our local mental health services whilst he was with us but also gave him a deadline as to how long he could stay with us (a couple of months). He eventually told some friends of mine he was going to hurt them and I took him straight to hospital where he disclosed he thought he was going to hurt my DD (16). The hospital rightly responded to this by raising a safeguarding concern.

He was admitted and eventually transported back to his hometown where he was under the psychosis team and eventually admitted to a psychiatric ward for some months where he underwent ECT. I still supported, attending his weekly ward meetings online, liaising with his medical teams, his employer, making practical arrangements, keeping his flat clean (which was a mess due to serious self neglect) and visiting in hospital (it’s a 6 hour round trip so couldn’t go often but when I could).

The safeguarding referral resulted in me being interviewed by children’s social care twice and having my fitness to keep my DD safe questioned; insinuation was that I somehow should have known my brother was a danger - which I didn’t until he disclosed it (I had still insisted to my brother that he couldn’t stay long term as it was having a negative impact on my daughter (who has ADHD and was preparing for her GCSEs) and husband (who had recently gone through his own metal health crisis), but physical danger hadn’t occurred to me). They also contacted my EXH (DDs dad) and asked if she could live with him if I “prioritised my DB’s needs” which he revelled in. They also spoke to DD’s school, and eventually DD. They were ultimately reassured that I was capable of protecting/prioritising my DD and that her and my brother would not be under the same roof again - on that basis they saw no need for any further action. It was a horrible time, with me feeling intense guilt about a) allowing DD to be put in a position of potential danger, not that I was aware at the time, and b) knowing that my brother had nobody else to turn to (parents are now very elderly) other than me for support and I said no (well, no to the support he wanted, which was to stay with us long term). I also had to have some very difficult conversations with DD, her school, my EXH. It also affected DD - only the other day she was asking again why he was going to hurt her and I explained that he was very sick and not himself - and who knows the impact it had on her exams.

He was very recently released from hospital and just this past fortnight has made a miraculous recovery - which I'm putting down to the effects of the ECT taking hold. I was so incredibly happy to see that he was doing so much better.

I got a message from him last night telling me he had made up the disclosure to hospital about hurting DD so they would take him seriously and give him some help/admit him. I don’t know what the hell to feel about this?! I suspect he’s saying this in the hope that say, “ah well in that case you can come back to ours to visit” (he used to spend a LOT of time at ours, in hindsight he was very reliant on us), of course that’s not going to happen, for a start social services would take an exceptionally dim view of this, god knows if he’s telling the truth now, or if he was telling the truth then? But if it was a lie, does he realise what the fall out his original disclosure had??? The shit I had to deal with, the shit DD had to deal with??

I’ve left him on read as I don’t know how to react to him. I’m now in a position where I feel as though I can’t be anything but nice to him about it due to the fear of him relapsing into depression if I do anything other than that. But I’m SO angry with him. I know he was sick when he said it, I’d come to terms with him saying it as I believed he wasn’t in his right mind, and actually came to see his original disclosure as his way of protecting her against himself. But now I’ve been told that he made it up, well, it seems very calculated and with no consideration of the impact it would have on DD and me. There’s no remorse in his admission - no apology, just a statement of fact.

From my experience the manipulation, lying etc can go hand in hand with adult men going through these kind of acute mental health challenges.

There is an kind of extreme self absorption and an almost complete disregard for the lives of anyone else. I think clear boundaries are so important here especially for the women in their lives.

I have seen women been ground down to nothing in trying to stay supportive and helpful. Even you feeling like you have to make some kind of decision here has been completely created by his volitile and manipulative behaviour. It’s an illusion that he has created, he said something completely vile about your child, that has very important consequences for all involved.

Don’t be a pawn in his game. And as someone said show your daughter that you need to have boundaries and you do not have to set yourself on fire so someone else’s feeling don’t get hurt.

Everything that @walker1211 says. Even now he is being manipulative with his behaviour.
I haven’t read your previous threads but have you been brought up to place him and his needs before you?

@SheilaFentiman nails it with "As it has been logged by the hospital and social services as a safeguarding issue you’ll appreciate that it still means that it’s not possible for you to come here".

That's literally all I would say. Do not get caught in a pointless conversation about what he did or did not mean. It was said, it led to massive disruption and upheaval for you and your daughter and it is no longer an option for him to stay with you or see your daughter.

We went to see him last weekend (DH and I) - it was the first time we’d seen him since he’d suddenly recovered. He was saying how lucky he was that he’d been looked after so well and proceeded to list all the people that had been so kind to him - consisting of the medical professionals and his boss (who has kept his job open for him for over a year - although I had been constantly communicating with them, sorting fit notes out and even attempted to pull some strings, which may or may not have helped) - there was not one single mention of me in this gratitude.

I’ve been brought up to put the needs of men before my own in general. My mum has been subservient to my draconian father (who I’m sure has his own metal health issues or personality disorder, undiagnosed of course as he’d never accept it) for as long as I’ve been alive. I am adamant that the cycle stops with me though.

Either it was true - in which case the steps taken were necessary and it remains important for such strong boundaries and protections to remain.

Or it was untrue and a calculated move on his part to stomp all over your daughter's needs in order to prioritise his own - in which case the need for strong boundaries and protections remain.

He's your brother and continuing to offer such support as you are able - visiting him, calling him, advocating for him if his health deteriorates again - fine. Bringing him back into your home and lives regardless of the impact this has on you, your DH and your DC - not fine.
Being clear with him about what support and involvement he can expect from you is the supportive thing to do now, not to let him expect he can slot back in to your family life with his sister playing the role of carer.

I think this tells you. Don’t listen to words - listen to actions.

I will say this you are not responsible for him. He is an adult. He has caused life long damage to others.

You daughter is 16 and doing GCSEs and the focus is on her.

I would leave it on read.

You went to see him at the weekend- even if you don’t take your daughter than means time with her and emotional energy was absorbed by him.

The priority needs to be her.

I used to have a best friend (over 30 years) who just lurched from one crisis to the next, she was the closest thing I had to family. I got nothing out of it but grief. Her two adult children both have life long mental issues from her and a divorce that has rambled on for 20 years.
One day I just stopped and said effectively - the tank is empty here, you need professional support and I can’t offer it.

I deleted her off everything and once or twice she reached out and even when she said things were better I said I’m glad you have the professional support you need. But I’m not meeting her.

Distance and boundaries.

I’m so sorry. How did that make you feel? Did you call him out on it? Did it change how you plan to see/support him in future?

perhaps his selfishness and manipulation are just his characteristics and they are exacerbated by his MH Difficulties.

He is very lucky to have you. You have been an amazing support to him, whether he realises it or not.

Now is the time to step back op. For your own and your dh and dd’s sake.

I know you’re worried about the ramifications of doing this on your db’s mental health, but you have to start putting yourself and your families mental health above his.

you’ll never know the full truth, people with severe mh issues are very selfish by the very illness, they can’t see beyond their own pain and issues, but that doesn’t excuse his behaviour or mean you have to be his emotional crutch and doormat.

Gosh that must have been very difficult. He's put you through the wringer, you and your family. I feel anger on your behalf, it's so unfair and unjust.

Take your time responding, and the next time you travel all that way to see him, do it because you want to see him, rather than out of guilt or obligation. However long that may take. You need time to process all of this.

I think this is probably the only real way forward.

It doesn't really matter if it was true or not, you and your DD aren't safe to have him in your home and it's not realistic for you to take on any kind of caring role for him and it's also not realistic to think that you can have a relationship based on mutual regard - you will always be the carer and he will always be the one in need.

I can well believe that people lie/exaggerate their symptoms in order to be taken seriously - lack of resources often means that only immediate risk to self/others leads to anything happening - working in mental health I’ve seen this a lot. He probably didn’t think about the fall out of his words and the consequences for you and your daughter at all.

im also not sure people with mental health issues are any more manipulative devious than anyone else, they’re just
not very good at it so everyone can see what’s going on!

either way though he said what he said and that has consequences so no he can’t come back to yours anymore.

Lie or not the outcome was horrendous. Try not to engage too much with him or the drama will start again.

Yeah, it made me feel like absolute shit. He even went to the extremes of detailing how he had to clean his flat when he got discharged. DH and I scrubbed that place from top to bottom, washed his bedding, scrubbing crap and urine off the floor etc. it was honestly disgusting, but of course there was no judgement as he was seriously self neglecting at the time. But to then listen to him saying how much work he put in cleaning his flat when he got home was galling. I know, these are all petty issues in relation to the main issue, and at the time I overlooked them as I was just so happy to see him well, but now I am very upset and resentful.

I would go with, 'sorry but after a threat like that I can't ever trust you near my DD. If it was lies it was very dangerous lies and there are consequences'.

I mean he could have said he was going to hurt vagrants or random people if he wanted to lie to get attention, singling out your DD is not reasonable whether true or false. You can never believe what he says.

I would plan in detail and rehearse to yourself what you will do when he eventually turns up at your door again saying he’s desperate and has nowhere else to go. This could include saying ‘no you can’t stay here, you need to find somewhere else’ (note use of the word no) and having something to give him that lives by the door eg bag with Uber card, cash or whatever he might need to travel and stay elsewhere for a couple of nights. If he’s truly homeless (or claims to be) then including the address of your local hostels. He needs to get the message that you’re not his backstop. Good luck!

Honestly I would thumbs up the message and not send any further reply, while quietly withdrawing. Practice “no sorry I can’t help with that” - at least with the whole social services thing, you have an excuse to not help anymore.

I think caring for someone who has MH difficulties can be particularly challenging when they have no real insight into the impact it has on others around them.

My friend is similar, she'll gloss over the impact her suicide attempts and psychotic incidents have on me and her family and regularly rants about how all of us are bastards and don't help her and brushes off any conversation about what happened by saying that she was unwell at the time.

I know he's your brother, but you don't have to take on the role of carer anymore. Even more so that he, apparently, used a threat towards your dd to get his needs met. Not acceptable and there is a consequence.

I’m RAGING for you that he doesn’t appreciate anything you and DH have done yet clearly thinks it of other people - so you are just his doormat to be used and abused. Stop it all now. Draw a line from here on and he has to sort his own messes. You are not responsible.

There are elements of selfishness, manipulation and dishonesty to him and these may well be part of his illness

This, OP. He will be doing his best to present as "normal" and at this stage he thinks that means reassuring you he didn't really mean it.

I can well believe that too - and appreciate that you have to “play the game” to be taken seriously enough for action to be taken when it comes to your health, mental or physical. But he was already receiving care in the form of the mental health crisis team who were regularly coming to see him at my house. Things escalated when I tried to put a boundary down and told him that he could only stay until X date. He initially said he was going to hurt/kill some friends of mine a few doors down as reported by my friend when she called me to come get him (which was when I took him directly to hospital) - her DH had the stupid idea that he could “fix” him by inviting him over and talking to him - I warned him agains this but he didn’t listen. So he was already presenting as a danger to others, he really didn’t need to talk specifically about DD to reach his aim to be admitted.

I think you've had some good advice on this thread. I just wanted to say: poor you, OP. What a lot you have had to deal with. I'm not surprised you don't know how to respond so perhaps you just don't have to.

This.

What an awful situation.

Honestly OP, you can only give and do so much.
Step away and put your daughter and your own immediate household first. 16 is a tricky age, you need to be there for her. You’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of dealing with your brothers issues, which is fine if you’re willing, but don't let it be to the detriment of your daughter and yourself!

@inigomontoyahwillcox I remember your original thread about your brother and although you have kept him away from your home over the last year, it doesn’t sound like you’ve stepped back much at all. You acknowledge that you have been raised to put men’s needs first but don’t seem to be able to let go of your brother, despite the harm he has caused you and your family.

Your brother is clearly not well but there are also some aspects of his behaviour that are just his personality although it’s probably impossible to separate which is which. He hasn’t acknowledged your help because it’s expected of you by him. His admission about the lie (whether it’s a lie or not) demonstrates his complete lack of awareness of how his behaviour/decisions impact you. There was a lot of emotional manipulation from him in your previous thread and you were pressured into letting him stay with you. It’s ok to acknowledge that he is/was unwell but that doesn’t excuse his behaviour or his complete lack of consideration or care for you. This is a very one sided relationship and you clearly feel a moral obligation to support him but it’s brought you and your family nothing but stress and upset.

There is little point in confronting him about the lie in any real way, he’s unlikely to take on board the gravity of what he did if it was a lie and if he’s actually lying now it’s just a manipulation tactic. Either way you won’t get the response that you crave which is a sincere apology, acknowledgement for his actions and the harm it caused and gratitude for all you’ve done for him. You are never going to get that and as such he will continue to hurt you, whether intentional or not. You still need to step further back from him, you’ve done more than most would have in this situation and ultimately it’s still causing you harm, you’ve done enough and don’t owe him anything.

Wait a few days and respond with something fairly neutral about how what was said was said, the impact was real even if the statement was a lie and either way it doesn’t change the boundary you have around being in your home/near your daughter.