Are you aware of the amount of SEN/additional needs pupils in class?

[yetiflowerpumpkin]

I’ve put this in chat rather than anywhere else because I just want to highlight the scale of SEN/additional needs in schools. In my experience, and reading on MN, some parents aren’t aware of the issues school staff face in supporting these students.

I am an experienced cover teacher in a medium sized primary school. In the classes I cover there are 25-30 children.

As an example, in two of the classes 75% of the pupils have additional educational needs. Some are diagnosed, others are on the (years long) waiting list. Some have multiple needs (Autism, ADHD, AuDHD, SEMH, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, physical/visual impairment and other medical needs, some life threatening). I don’t think in any class I cover there is less than 40%.

I think some parents think their child is the only child with needs in class and cannot understand why those needs are sometimes not met. In the ideal world all those needs would be met, but there isn’t a possibility in mainstream with lack of support staff, lack of space and lack of funding.

I try and do my best (my own family are neurodivergent) but I know my best isn’t good enough for some parents.

Does it surprise you the amount of additional needs there are in class?

SEN support is allocated for need not diagnoses or “labels” as you helpfully put it.

I have a profoundly disabled DD who attends a special school and I work as a midday assistant in a different school.
Quite a few children have SEN in the school I work in - what I see is the children with SEN are doing fine with their needs being met (whether it’s breaks, fidget spinners, etc). But..it’s an independent school where classes are smaller and provision is easier to maintain because there aren’t large classes.
The UK needs more specialist schools- I believe the school near me which is just for ASD/ADHD and other SEND needs which don’t include profound learning disabilities apparently gets excellent results.
I wonder if part of the problems for providers in education is the variation in needs - whereas if the “grouping” of needs might work more effectively. I don’t know but short of a government push of huge resources into SEND (which won’t happen) it’s not going to get much better.
As for pondering the cause of the rise in conditions that are observable and beyond doubt (!!) there will be many factors- better neonatal care meaning children who might have died otheraise do not, population growth in general, better and proper diagnosis, greater public awareness of the fact of the existence of SEND (before internet we knew news on global or national level from newspapers and the news and local issues via those and conversations.. Possibly children were kept in the home if they “weren’t suitable” for school and not seen or discussed, as well as being put in institutions., children were “lazy” or “slow” or “easily distracted “, “naughty” etc.

It's dire.

I have worked in both state and independent schools and in the state school the level of need was huge. I had very disruptive pupils with high needs and no TA at times. It was an impossible job. Many years ago I remember having 3 TAs in my classroom; two 1:1s and a general TA. The 1:1s were in less need of their adult as many in classrooms now without one.

The independent school I worked in had a high level of SEN purely because the parents got fed up of the state school situations presumably and thought the smaller class sizes would help. The problem is there were barely any TAs because the class sizes were so small and it wasn't cost effective.

It's very difficult to plan a lesson when you have such varying learning needs. Some kids can't read or write, some have some kind of ADHD so need learning split into tiny chunks with sensory breaks, which can't be delivered without another adult in the room. It adds a huge amount to our planning workload, alot of which is done at home, which makes it even worse.

your children were at school with just as many children with additional needs they just weren’t identified or recognised.

they were the lazy or naughty children, or the quiet ones that no one noticed or the high achievers

but they were there

my own child wasn’t identified as having SEN until he was 15 - by either school or us as parents - he was in the naughty and lazy camp - recognising that he actually had ADHD and changing our approach has radically transformed his experience and attainment.

so 12 years ago, you me and the senco at your kids school wouldn’t have recognised his SEN

it’s just now we recognise that there needs are different and that one teaching style and one learning style doesn’t actually fit all

PS issues at home can also lead to SEN

This is the natural result of "mainstreaming" surely.

Closed so many special schools and units - lost all that expertise - and not able to replicate the same in local mainstream schools.

Why are schools no longer meeting the needs of children?

Why have schools changed so much in the last 30 years? Are they no longer fit for purpose?

If schools are not able to meet children's needs and prepare them for adult life, then what needs to change?

I am a TA in a huge secondary school, 10 years ago there were 25 of us now we are down to 12, we are all part time so in some days there are only 6 in. We are taken out of lessons to do interventions so we only do class support about 50% of the time.

Out of 300 ish kids per year about 50+ are somewhere on the Send register roughly 10 a year have EHCPs. The numbers are increasing year in year.

We are not physically able to support all the kids who actually have funding, never mind the ones awaiting diagnosis or just struggling.

It's a shit show and it's not going to get any better as there is no money.

The problem is the curriculum - it’s unsuitable for the majority of kids and as a result its making “mild” SEN much more obvious than it would have been (say) in the 1980s when expectations were lower and teaching and learning was more relaxed - less test orientated.

i see this in my own child who is dyspraxic and almost certainly ASD - and on the waiting list - but who I think would have fully coasted back when I was at primary school.

I’m extremely cross about the absolute destruction of childhood caused by Michael gove and other over the last two decades

c.40% average in most classes in my school, rising to 60%+ in certain classes. Absolutely NOT counting glasses wearing. These are children who require significant support for a variety of reasons and who cannot for one reason or another access the mainstream curriculum or cope with the "standard" school day.

Bullseye. The problem isn’t that kids are suddenly different, it’s that the expectations of them at such a young age are fucking mental

SEN means children need more than is typically provided in mainstream education.

If the OP is correct that the majority of children are not being appropriately educated in 'mainstream' provision then that provision isn't really mainstream any more.

What bewilders me was the complete disregard for my DS in Y1 when he couldn't read or write. Hes dyslexic and it was so obvious, but the school point blank refused to support a diagnosis or provide support as "they needed the funds for SEN". So if kids like him aren't counted, what on earth are they supporting. In between private tutors and moving countries, he has effective support now.

I do the same job as OP- in some classes 25%- 40% of each class in my school.

That's positive, I have been told by CYPS that they're fantastic, and absolutely support schools by working with them. They apparently help meet children's needs, offering impartial advice, explaining policies, preparing parents for meetings, and guiding collaboration between parents, the Local Authority, and the school to ensure children get the right support. especially around exclusions or EHC Plans. I also read that they act also as a resource to improve communication and understanding for everyone involved in a child's SEN journey within the mainstream setting.

I am a bit worried that school will think we are checking up on them, but I am interested in calling them in to support everybody needing information.

I'm a governor in a primary which has a high proportion SEN and we have approx 35% across the school. 75% is not a realistic guess.
I am also a teacher and a mother of child with SEN.

Yr 1 is too early to diagnose dyslexia. There is no definitive test. Nothing would really change anyway bar using tinted reading screens and coloured paper. Teachers have to teach the curriculum- all chn are supported to do so with the resources and staff available regardless of difficulty.

Lack of funding and the stopping of wider services to support parents.

Schools need TAs. Teachers can't manage it all on their own. TAs should be paid much more and SEN trained so they can assist on the planning and resources for these pupils rather than it all falling on the teacher.

They partially took TAs away because of some awful EEF report published many years ago claiming that TAs had a very small impact on progress compared to other factors.

Agree with landlordhell. Dyslexia cannot be diagnosed until Year 3. We are doing this now.
The school will get extra funding for SEN if a diagnosis is made.

I’m in a mid- size FE College ((post 16). We have 500 students with an EHCP, and a significant number who have SEN, also another large group are those with undiagnosed needs. This has increased every year since I have been in FE.

Exactly, ND children would not need quite as much support if expectations were lowered. The things they make a fuss over in dc's school is crazy, and makes extra work for them. Even dc's teacher says they expect too much of little kids now.

In my class of 32, 16 have some form of SEND. Only one EHCP but there should easily be another 4 at least.

There are varying levels within this though - eg high functioning autistic who maybe only gets a bit overwhelmed in large crowds but is academically fine and fine in the classroom/someone diagnosed dyslexic who is achieving at expectations but reverses numbers & letters occasionally and finds spelling very hard vs children who are unable to read and write even with intense support.

It’s a mix of more awareness, non existent school budgets meaning far fewer TAs who can be trained to run interventions (teachers can only do so much within their day), lack of funding for local authority services like children’s centres and a lack of adaptation. Dyslexia friendly teaching is helpful for all children so by teaching that way in the first place, a large majority of children are being supported, for instance.

I do fondly remember the days we used to have a dedicated reading teacher though who was able to provide such a fantastic boost for lots of children.

I also agree that slowing the curriculum down is so helpful for lots of children. Especially those who find processing hard. Easier said than done in lots of schools though…

No she isn't!
And it isn't true to say that children who wear glasses, or have glue ear don't need extra support. Young children find glasses difficult to deal with, they lose them, break them, or forget to bring them to school. They take them off for playtime and forget to put them back on, or they take them off in the playground, then forget where they left them.

That all takes staff time to sort out, which takes time away from teaching and learning time.

So weird that we're expected to accept that the problem is the 'majority' of children can't access 'mainstream' education so there must be something wrong with children/parents.

A lot of it is purely down to age as well, August born children are 30% less likely to reach a 'Good Level of Development in early years compared to Autumn born children; 40% of Summer born boys 'have SEN' 🤔

This thread doesn't make sense. Is the OP saying that more children are neurodivergent, than neurotypical? If so, we need to redefine these terms.