Do we need titles Miss/Ms/Mrs/Mr etc?

[NuffSaidSam]

Do we still need these? Does anyone know what the purpose is?

I've just been asked by the TV license people and it's made me wonder if it's necessary anymore (the title, not the TV license).

I think I'd be happy to go without.

whilst I understand what you’re saying in some respects re communication, you dont need to know anything about this person to have a pleasant and reliable 5 minute encounter with them, which makes me suspect you’re being a bit goady.

Then it starts to sound like a 1900s school teacher addressing his students. Stanford stand in the corner, I'll have none of that.

No.

inwas somthrilled and excited to be able to call myself a Mrs. Now I divorced the horrible man I married I hate having to have a title as some companies are too bloody archaic and either insist on one or just use my surname.

No! I do not think that titles are necessary but I have never come across a situation where it’s possible to avoid this

I understand your angle ClaredeBear and I'll be the first to admit my way at looking at life may be a little out dated, but I like to know which side of the bread my toast is buttered if you'll excuse my language. And I make no apologies about that

No we don't need it. For most of English history, most people didn't use titles. It only became assumed everyone needed a title to be 'proper' in the late Victorian/early Edwardian time period (varying by place).

Prior to that, they were used to signify class and/or occupation. It's why in Quaker writings particularly, as well as some similar groups, have long discussed not a title even if one 'could' as part of the practice of equality.

As that shift did happen, it would probably need an equivalent shift which enabled people to no longer use them and/or a further shift to titles dividing by different characteristics (age perhaps) or back to by profession as they're going to stick around in those that have had them for centuries like medicine, law, and education.

Many object to women having multiple titles that have become associated with marital status. I find it more frustrating that we're stuck with having an incomplete word because Mistress, Madam, and nearly every female title has become associated with prostitution and oversexualised. Men don't get called Murr.

‘Older generations’, I.e the generations that invented feminism, developed Ms to avoid naming women according to their marital status.

Ms was developed during the 17th century, and during the 17th, 18th, and a good part of the 19th in many places, none of the shortening of Mistress were automatically connected to marital status. There are writings of and about unmarried women using Miss, Mrs, Ms, and Mm (madam) in the social circles where women had either the assets or were in professions.

So, older generations didn't name women according to marital status, more recent generations pushed for it to do so as part of having everyone have titles and be 'proper' in their categorisation, and many have been complaining and trying to fix it since.

are you saying that in the past either everyone was addressed as "firstname" or that they, including women, were all addressed as "lastname"?

sounds... implausible.

I hate this drop down lists you can’t leave blank but don’t have your correct title as an option.

i am Dr*, so when the drop down is Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms all four options are incorrect. I usually put Mr as it’s as correct as the other 3 🤣

*I agree with op that titles are obsolete and always leave blank unless I am forced to give a title.

We have evolved over billions of years to instantly evaluate the person we are interacting with. Gender (and by that I really mean sex) is one of the, if not the, very first things we note in a person, on an almost subconscious level, that hugely informs how we interact with them in a multitude of ways. It's bizarre that you think people would not feel uncomfortable having this marker blurred or confused.

Why?

i hate it and am glad it is not my title. I absolutely abhor society thinks my ability to catch a man is so fucking important that it should be part of my very name.

i don’t give a fuck if you’re married. Most people do it, it’s not clever, unique or a reflection on what an amazing person you are. It’s just a life event that happens to many people.

i also hate the fact that marriage clearly isn’t deemed such an important event in men’s lives that they need to announce it on every document and formal introduction.

i read a good quote the other day:

if marriage really benefited women, it would have been taken off us years ago.

I do not understand why humans have always had a preoccupation with sex and gender more than anything else.

To me, knowing whether someone is married or unmarried (unless I am looking to date them) or what sex they are is no more relevant in modern to day-to-day interaction than whether they like yellow or blue, or cottage pie vs. chicken and chips.

We get asked for our titles for just about everything, such as buying a gadget in Curry's. These days, it is more about data collection for marketing purposes than to help the consumer in any way. I'd rather just give my name.

As for not knowing the sex of someone who served you, why is this important to you when there are tens of thousands of other variables you do not know about any stranger?

Exactly. No more is needed other than professional etc titles where relevant.

Equality between the sexes and no 'is it Miss/Mrs/Ms' annoyances. What argument is there against that?

Same. Patriarchal bullshit designed to put women in their place. Resist.

I actually resisted titles today😆
I was asking for a digital catalogue for Greenhouses, and the chap asked for my name and email , fine and then title.
And I thought, fuck it, NO. Asked why he needed a title for me. He looked a bit perplexed and then said, 'but Mrs, Miss? the only other option is 'Other'
I said, 'fine, Other it is...' and added that no one categorises him as married or not on a box so why should I be?
To his credit he said 'fair point' as he ticked the 'other' box.!

The first day of my rebellion....

I disagree, I adore being a Mrs, I use it on everything and would continue to do so.

Out of interest, what do you think you'd do if there were a move towards all adult women using Mrs?

I’m a Ms and have been for 40 years or so….single and married. I never thought it was fair that men didn’t have to have a signifier of marital status while women did.

Wouldn’t bother me, I prefer Mrs to Miss or Ms, it sounds way better.

i adore how nowadays people have such an issue with ‘Mrs’ when we literally have people running round identifying themselves as cats, wolves, etc. Utter madness!

Oh, so it's the word you like rather than what it indicates? That's interesting. I've had the impression most of the people who like Mrs base it on the latter rather than the former, I think you might be the first I've spoken to whose preference is due to the sound. I guess you would also want to keep using it if it shifted to meaning, say, unmarried women?

The second point could be made about any opinion on naming customs really, including a desire to be called Mrs rather than say Ms.

I also like ‘Mrs’ because I have zero issue with being married to a man who’ve I’ve been with for almost 20 years and adore. I’m very proud of our marriage, the life we’ve built together and the family we are raising together, so yeah, that’s not something I’d hide.

If I was anti-marriage and chose to be unmarried, then I would prefer a different title. I don’t get the hostility towards marriage. Personal pronouns- absolutely. Utter nonsense which I refuse to engage with.

If unmarried I’d rather be Miss than Ms as nobody knows how to pronounce it, which I would find very irritating.

No, I meant if the general societal usage of the word changed rather than your situation.

I thought from your first reply that you would probably want to stick with Mrs even if the meaning changed, as a sound preference, but from your recent posts maybe not? I think it's an interesting thought experiment because title meanings rely so much on what other people are doing.

Also worth pointing out that not liking the current situation where women's titles are so often assumed to be based on marital status isn't being anti-marriage. If it were so important, one would expect there to be campaigns for married men to have a title indicator too, as this would only strengthen the message.

@ThankYouNigel Is that Nigel of the Farage variety you're thanking in your name? 🤔

I've been with my partner 20 years. We've built a nice life, lovely family, very happy. Not married. I'm no more or less proud of our relationship, bring married is irrelevant. I know someone who's been married three times in the same 20 years, which tbh I judge quite hard.

Marriage is the most important spiritual, emotional, legal and financial commitment, especially to those of any genuine faith.

Some of us do still take our vows seriously. For me, I would never have had my children with a man who had not made those promises to me in the eyes of God. I wouldn’t have taken him very seriously.

Given how much Mumsnetters have a pop at SAHMs for being ‘financially and legally vulnerable’, I’m amazed they’d ever consider living with man they were not married to. You still have far greater rights and protections being married. I’m certainly advising my son not to have a baby unmarried- he wouldn’t even have automatic parental responsibility. Very concerning and unwise.

In my country of origin (same part of the world) titles aren't used at all. There was a time in the 60s where deliberate social reform shifted address from formal to 'you' and first name terms. When studying English at school, we thought the formality of sex-based titles hilarious.