Bondi beach mass shooting

[habin]

Just horrendous. There was a big Jewish gathering on the beach. Jewish festival goers targeted by two gunmen. At least ten people dead according to police.

They lived in sw Sydney . If you know the area you know what I mean. Basically the opposite of the UK, where sw London is somewhere you want to live. And can I be brave enough to say that we all knew these shooters weren't going to be Bill and Fred Brown.
Mr Ahmed is a hero. I am worried that are going to charge the guy who kicked the still alive shooter in the head. There was an interview with him this morning. He was weaving his way through the crowd trying to get to one and disarm . Hero Mr Ahmed beat him to it so he ran onto the bridge, and the cops had just shot the son. He kicked him in the head. Probably not ideal. He sai he was just so angry. I hope he's not charged.

There is a good film from 1964, The Pawnbroker. Stars Rod Steiger as a Jewish Pawnbroker, camp survivor, There is a scene where his character explains it well. About how they were not allowed to lay down roots anywhere. It's on the IMDB quotes page. I won't cut and paste because it's quite long.

It is also worth noting that the Roman Catholic Church did not officially announce Jews were not collectively responsible for killing their Jesus till 1965.

That's just 60 years ago. There are still denominations that blame them for that.

And Usuary. That's' a usual reason given. Kings etc would borrow money to fight wars, and instead of paying them back, they would expel them. Though I recall this might be disputed.

Also, Australia is not anti-semetic. These are random people living in certain areas, and the police haven't done a good enough job of stopping them. Father and son in an air bnb, that's not easy to catch. But they did feck up by allowing the marches, particularly the opera house steps one. People just think "yeah yeah , blah blah, as if anything would happen here". There are suburbs that are verging on no-go zones and everyone is too polite/scared to point out the bleeding obvious, that these are radical islamists. I know the uk had the same problem with the grooming gangs.
It's like "white" people can't get over whatever their great, great, great grandfathers did. Meanwhile. every other race couldn't give a flying feck in reality, what their gggfathers did. I am Australian, and lived in Bondi for years, my mother grew up there , my Grandma lived there from 1925. It has always had a big jewish community. Absolutely devestated. This is not Australia.
Oh and he got the weapons because he had a firearms licence and belonged to a gun club ( the dad). People probs too scared to question him or they'll get fired. He had 6 registered weapons, they were all taken to Bondi.

@MeouwKing and @Damnloginpopup

There's no need to diss everyone else's beliefs, including those of Jewish people, who believe in God just as Christian and Muslims do. They are the three Abrahamic religions. And fyi, Genesis in the Bible talks about the time when there was nothing, no earth and no dinosaurs. And also fyi, some of the most illustrious and famous scientists and physicists in the world believe in a divine start to all that there is. (Or believed, when they were still alive.) Darwin thought that evolution was compatible with faith, for example.

Modern scientists who believe/believed in God

Legendary Scientists who believed in God

You might also be interested to know that quantum physics tells us there are other dimensions. It's thought that there is at least one other dimension of which we have no knowledge because we cannot conceive of it, and that whoever discovers what it is will go down in history on a Newton/Darwin/Einstein level.

Wave-particle duality tells us this other dimension exists, as does the hut-couple experiment. I'm simplifying and it's way too much to explain here, but you can always look it up. The book Quantum Enigma, published by Oxford University Press, is good. Einstein thought there was a spiritual aspect to the universe, and these experiments prove without a doubt he was onto something. They have been replicated at the most respectable academic institutions in the world, and they should not be true, as far as our own perception allows, but the experiments show that they are true.

Basically, the same matter can behave like waves or like particles.....depending on who's watching. But as far as we can perceive, that's impossible. And the hut-couple experiment demonstrates that a man or a woman comes out of the two huts depending on which one you are expecting to see.

They suggest that there is something not exactly permanent or fixed about things in the universe that we perceive to be fixed. Because how can a piece of matter have a dual nature that reveals different sides depending if a human is watching or not? As far as we know, a wave is a wave and a particle is a particle and cannot change depending on if it's being watched or not. However, The Double-Slit Experiment is the classic proof that this is not the case. Send particles (like electrons) through two slits:

1. If you don't watch which slit they go through, they form an interference pattern (wave-like).
2. If you do watch, they act like particles and the pattern disappears.

If you extrapolate these experiments to the macro level, it's the equivalent of a wall being solid or made of light, depending on if a human is looking at it or not. They indicate that everything is different from how WE perceive it. In other words, that our perception is not reliable and that there's a lot more to the universe than we can see.

Einstein's idea of Spinoza's God, an over-arching intelligent force in our universe might be correct, even if it's not actually old man with a white beard.

So I wouldn't be so sure with your flat, un-nuanced, two-dimensional denial of religion. And it's really not on to piss on everyone else's holy chips. I never, ever, ever talk about my religion, not to anyone. But people who are so arrogant as to declare that there's nothing, and that they know so much better than much of humanity and all of human history, are just asking for a quantum physics lesson.

Goodness ,you are extremely knowledgeable ( assuming what you say is correct)
But it still breaks down to radical islamists have been attacking "the west" for decades. And nobody seems particularly keen to stop them. It is allegorically like the trans debate. Everyone is being too polite. It's almost Monty Python come to life. " it's just a flesh wound".

The knowledge about quantum physics is all established, published, and readily available for anyone who wants to read about it.

As regards no one being bothered about radical Islam, I thought the west and other countries have been tackling Islamist terrorism since 9/11. Many plots foiled, apparently, and huge resources dedicated to intelligence and putting dodgy people on no-fly lists and God knows what else. Sadly, it's not always enough. Thank heavens that the plot to hurt people at a German market was just foiled, at least, even if the poor, poor people in Australia weren't saved. 😢

ETA: I hear you about the "just a flesh wound" attitude, but that's just the public. Governments have been doing a lot behind the scenes since 2001 to tackle the issue, I think.

@NewNameforThisPost2025

You presented a gish gallop of God of the gaps argument, with a spinking of ad populum fallacy.

Here is not the thread to debunk your points, but it is totally clear that there was a religious motive in the killers heads.

Would it not be easier for everyone if they just kept their god to themselves ? That way there might a few less people shooting other people because the shooters disagree with the god that the other people might or might not believe in.

If you start a new thread with your proposition, I will see you there.

I say this respectfully of course.

Sorry but what on earth does quantum physics have to do with anything. I'd bet my last dollar that is not what the 2 dickheads ( father and son - nice family) were discussing the last week or so. They are stupid. Thick. Morons . I'm trying to find a polite way to say they are dumb ( because that insults hearing impaired people) but the depths of humanity. It is odd that that the depths of humanity seem to all have a common religion. Europe, Uk, Africa , now Australia. Why are people not realising this? The whole " Islam is a religion of peace" is sooooo infuriating. I mean I could list things but it would take to long. I understand that they are radical but although Muslims say they are against the violence, they are awfully quiet.
You know the world has gone to shit when you list Saudi Arabia is a shining example of your religion.
I am so happy to be here in beautiful Australia, happy and carefree. Fuck that dude and son and his family, they need to be deported to wherever they came from.

I did not make this post in a vacuum. I was responding to two posters who disrespectfully and arrogantly dismissed religion on a thread about Jewish people being killed for their religion.

I don't know what you mean about an ad populum fallacy. The quantum physics experiments I mentioned are established beyond a shadow of a doubt. Unless you want to write to all the best physics departments at the world's top universities and tell them they're wrong? Better write to the editor and authors of Oxford University Press's The Quantum Enigma too and tell them they've got it all wrong. Don't tell me what I wrote is rubbish, which is effectively what you said. There is no gish gallop of God of the gaps argument, with a spinking of ad populum fallacy, whatever on earth that means.

A couple of posters arrogantly dismissed the religion of Jews on a thread about Jews being murdered for their religion. I was replying to say that science strongly suggests there is something akin to religion in the universe. That's what quantum physics has to do with it.

FFS, please stop trying to make it about your Oxford debate skills.
A father and son went and shot people on a Sunday evening. Nobody is interested in your quantum physics discussion. Geezus. A 10 yo girl is dead along with 15 others. Just stop. They were islamic fundamentalists, who were mistakenly let into Australia AND given a firearms licence. Stupidity. Our systems are usually so tight that it's hard to get a spouse into Australia. I am so pissed off.

1. That they were here in the first place
2. That the dad was given a firearms licence . WHY????? Because he belonged to a gun club. Close them down immediately.All of them.
3. The mosques need to be monitored, plus online imams.

You mean the book I just looked up and found loads of rebuttals for ?

This is not the place to link them, so start another thread with your proposition. I will keep an eye open for it.

Agree re the physics stuff. I apologise for responding to that post.

Are you talking about The Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner, published by OUP? That's the one I'm referring to. It's highly respected and I am not aware of any serious rebuttals. The experiments are accepted. They're not something for anyone to rebut. There are other books with similar titles, so I wondered if you were talking about one of those.

Tell that to science. Oxford University can't wait.

It is NOT OK to diss religion on a thread about Jewish people having been killed for their religion. That is my point.

@marmalade007 Why don't you save your FFs's for the posters who just said that the Jewish people who died because of their religion were wrong about religion anyway? Why don't you tell the people being incredibly disrespectful about the Jewish religion to "Just stop"? Firstly. my point is that science says there may well be something to the whole shebang. Don't shoot the messenger.

Secondly, why aren't you bothered by the anti-Semitism of people on this thread saying that the people who died, died for nothing because their religion is fake anyway? Why are you not bothered by that horrific disrespect, on this thread of all threads? Don't tell me to "just stop." I will stick up for the Jewish religion as long as I have breath in my body, and I won't "just stop" or be sworn at with your "for fuck's sakes."

I don't know why you think it's OK for Judaism to be dismissed as false on this thread, but perhaps a bit more reading and thinking than swearing at people sticking up for Judaism would do you some good.

I haven’t read the full thread so apologies if my post is repeating what someone has already said.

I’m Australian and in my 60s and have lived in, or, around Bondi my whole life. I only moved away from the eastern suburbs a few years ago because of gentrification - I could no longer afford it. I went to school there. I learned to swim at the Bondi ‘icebergs’pool. My kids learned to surf there.

I feel terrible today, as do very many Australians. I can only imagine how members of the Jewish community feel - the terrible sadness and grief and anxiety.

In Australia, we’ve seen a rise in both anti-Semitic and anti- Muslim rhetoric in recent years, anti-immigration rhetoric has risen generally, too. Also there is an increase in racism being experienced by Aboriginal and a Torres Strait Islander Australians.

I was relieved just then to read that the Sydney Morning Herald has confirmed that the civilian who disarmed the gunman, and was shot twice doing so, is an Australian Muslim. This shouldn’t matter. He is a brave man and, simply, deserves all the accolades. But there is a small sense of relief in my community that hopefully the fact that he is a Muslim will help defuse some of the hotheaded racist rhetoric we are seeing online -places like twitter- since this happened.

Australians hopefully won’t forget that it was a white Australian male who killed a large group of Muslim people only 6 years ago. This white nationalist terrorist entered a mosque in Christchurch, NewZealand, in 2019 and killed 51 people - men, women and children - and wounded many others.

At this point in time many countries are breeding terrorists. It’s not just one religion or one race responsible for terrorism. There’s something wrong in our societies.

Lol don't even start, the level that Europeans carried out their 'conquests' was/is another level.
Are they even comparable in the slightest?
Europeans committed massacres and took over, everywhere they went.

Look at, the US, Australia, South Africa, Namibia, places where they simply took and to hell with the native population.
And then they justify their actions with rather interesting statements,
Well we improved it, there weren't that many people, we fought and won etc.

And the entire continent of Africa?
They simply carved it up and squabbled over which areas they wanted, killed the majority of the population in Namibia.
Somehow the Germans still own the majority and best lands in Namibia, and laugh when they hear that the Namibians want their lands back, the level of arrogance is insane.

South Africa, where apartheid only ended in 1990 or something. And people still suffering the effects of the policies to this day.

Several million killed in Algeria when they wanted the French out.
The Belgain massacre in the Congo, The British massacre in Kenya.

And the destruction of countries and the looting of their natural resources.
And the fact they forced boys and men to fight for them in the 2nd world war.

Any European country that had colonies in Africa, made the people fight against each other and then fight abroad too, cannon fodder.
It's quite horrifying.

And Iraq? 2003.
Over 1 million died as a result of the war and the effects of war. But Tony Blair said sorry.
So I guess that makes it ok.

None of this is ok. But equally I am not going to blame colonialism for the slaughter of innocents on a beach. These two were radicalised terrorists.

I say this as a a brown person and a former colonial subject. There is a time and place to discuss colonialism. This aint it.

That is so sad

The marches are organised by organisations that are banned in the Middle East for their terrorist links to Hamas! Including ex Hamas chiefs! There is no pretending unless you are ignorant - and if you are ignorant, you should not be expressing an opinion - or support fundamentalist terrorism.