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Labour isn't working - Thread 20

1000 replies

TheNuthatch · 17/11/2025 11:40

A chat thread for those who don't like this Labour government. 💙* *

We are bracing for the budget. 😬

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5443813-labour-isnt-working-thread-19?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Labour isn't working - Thread 19 | Mumsnet

A chat thread for those who *don't *like this Labour government. 💙 We are bracing for the budget 😬 ^The problem with socialism is that you eventua...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5443813-labour-isnt-working-thread-19

OP posts:
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40
twistyizzy · 22/11/2025 10:52

All of Labour's discourse is about redistributing the pie, not making the pie bigger. Tax them and them and them instead of "let's make the pie much bigger so more people get a slice"

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 10:53

Yes, if you don't let people keep their earnings and possessions, they simply won't earn and buy anything. Simple as that. Why the fuck would you flog yourself to death everyday to end up with the same or less than people who don't. I don't understand what this government doesn't understand. It's elementary stuff here. We get it. Why don't they?

MantleStatue · 22/11/2025 10:53

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 10:45

People just won't work if there is no benefit to them for doing so. My lovely friend I met yesterday has a property she rents out from her first marriage. She said it's all too stressful now and she's selling. Her and her husband are planning on reducing their hours, with a view to retiring in 5 years. They're in their 50s. I know so many people doing this. My sister has done it. Basically, people are giving up.

100% agree.

We need people who have a vision for themselves as to what their futures would be like if they strive and achieve. The country needs those people. Else why would anyone go to University or study or get 13 jobs to keep their family afloat and because they want to buy their own house. People who are invested in their future, and by extension are invested in this country because they see their futures here. And see their children and grandchildren here.

Labour is in the active wilful process of obliterating that. They are going out of their way to create a society that consist of the jealous, the bitter, the spiteful and those who rely on the state. It's gerrymandering on a grand scale for one thing. But it's so so counter-productive. Anyone with a bit of 'get up and go' will get up and go. You cannot build a strong thriving nation on this. Or a strong and thriving economy.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

MantleStatue · 22/11/2025 11:06

Not sure if anyone heard Radio 4 a bit after 8.30 this morning. They had two 'panellists' who were in agreement that Labour is actively harming the ability people have to save and plan for their futures. The point was also made that a Chancellor might have a lovely little equation that says 'input this tax and it will raise this amount of money' but that they forget that people will change their behaviour when faced with taxes or situations they consider unfair or harmful.

It was nice to hear total agreement, rather than a 'for and against' approach the BBC usually does.

I can't remember the exact situation, but under the Tories (I think) they did something that was described as 'the longest suicide note in history'.

I expect that eventually the past 16-ish months of the Labour government will come to be seen as the longest suicide note in history. We need people with brains, vision, foresight to run this country. We don't have that right now.

twistyizzy · 22/11/2025 11:15

MantleStatue · 22/11/2025 11:06

Not sure if anyone heard Radio 4 a bit after 8.30 this morning. They had two 'panellists' who were in agreement that Labour is actively harming the ability people have to save and plan for their futures. The point was also made that a Chancellor might have a lovely little equation that says 'input this tax and it will raise this amount of money' but that they forget that people will change their behaviour when faced with taxes or situations they consider unfair or harmful.

It was nice to hear total agreement, rather than a 'for and against' approach the BBC usually does.

I can't remember the exact situation, but under the Tories (I think) they did something that was described as 'the longest suicide note in history'.

I expect that eventually the past 16-ish months of the Labour government will come to be seen as the longest suicide note in history. We need people with brains, vision, foresight to run this country. We don't have that right now.

Because they are economically and fiscally ignorant.

They don't understand human behaviour. Same with Education Tax. They refused to believe that the VAT would create behaviour change. That's why they predicted 3K would leave in first year Vs the 25K who actually did!

They really think that the people they target have got a bottomless reserve of money so paying more is easily absorbed.

That was their reasoning behind employer NI increase = employers can absorb it. Same argument as Education Tax ie schools will absorb it.

They are so very dangerous precisely because of their ignorance and lack of intelligence.

twistyizzy · 22/11/2025 11:30

The issue is that most Labour MPs are either careet politicians or from the Unions. They have very little business experience. My Labour MP has never had a job, too busy breeding children!
Many Tory MPs are small business owners so they understand the real world much better.

redange · 22/11/2025 11:34

That's because they are to tied up with their own envy and bitterness,to actually have any critical thinking. If your whole Political Life is centered around how 'Unlucky' you are, you are bound to have unrealistic ideas about somebody's 'wealth' or lifestyle.

EasternStandard · 22/11/2025 11:36

twistyizzy · 22/11/2025 11:30

The issue is that most Labour MPs are either careet politicians or from the Unions. They have very little business experience. My Labour MP has never had a job, too busy breeding children!
Many Tory MPs are small business owners so they understand the real world much better.

If that idea floated around dividend tax does happen it’s game over.

We need more start ups not fewer. We need more job creation not stamping all over it.

Utter madness.

MantleStatue · 22/11/2025 11:38

twistyizzy · 22/11/2025 11:30

The issue is that most Labour MPs are either careet politicians or from the Unions. They have very little business experience. My Labour MP has never had a job, too busy breeding children!
Many Tory MPs are small business owners so they understand the real world much better.

Our Labour MP (who I have detested for years for being so bloody lazy- but he was just the candidate then... never canvassed, never took public meetings unless an actual election was in the offing, etc etc, lives up the road from me so I have been observing him for years as a former local member etc) IS a small business owner. he also owns a number of shops he rents out on the high street. So I am baffled when he never says anything about what his own party is doing.

It was funny though when the WFA thing was scrapped someone on our local community facebook page posted a list of all his shops and suggested if people were cold they could camp out there.

ETA- I'm not baffled. He is cravenly interested in his own career.

redange · 22/11/2025 11:40

A good example being I have seen it posted on other sites that Angela Raynor was worth £5 million. This from a woman who can't find £40 k to pay her un-for seen tax bill. Labour MP's and the public in general don't understand 'Money' and the amounts that are required to obtain any 'money'.

redange · 22/11/2025 11:56

This song should be heard by Reeves. This song highlights everything that is going wrong at the moment.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntPeHC8z1Og

Forgetmenot9 · 22/11/2025 12:07

MantleStatue · 22/11/2025 11:06

Not sure if anyone heard Radio 4 a bit after 8.30 this morning. They had two 'panellists' who were in agreement that Labour is actively harming the ability people have to save and plan for their futures. The point was also made that a Chancellor might have a lovely little equation that says 'input this tax and it will raise this amount of money' but that they forget that people will change their behaviour when faced with taxes or situations they consider unfair or harmful.

It was nice to hear total agreement, rather than a 'for and against' approach the BBC usually does.

I can't remember the exact situation, but under the Tories (I think) they did something that was described as 'the longest suicide note in history'.

I expect that eventually the past 16-ish months of the Labour government will come to be seen as the longest suicide note in history. We need people with brains, vision, foresight to run this country. We don't have that right now.

The danger is that all the constant floating of different ways to tax people is that people change their behaviour for changes you don't end up making! I know we have massively cut back our Christmas plans, and have already made lifestyle adjustments. All my friends have.

Pensions to me is the biggest worry for the country. Surely we should be encouraging people to save this way? Any changes to pensions should only be made after a cross party review - it is going to have a huge impact on people's lives.

SouthernAccents · 22/11/2025 12:25

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 10:53

Yes, if you don't let people keep their earnings and possessions, they simply won't earn and buy anything. Simple as that. Why the fuck would you flog yourself to death everyday to end up with the same or less than people who don't. I don't understand what this government doesn't understand. It's elementary stuff here. We get it. Why don't they?

I think they ‘get it’, which is arguably more worrying.

For me it’s two things - vindictiveness and envy, and the naked pursuit of the retention of power.

Both Starmer and Reeves are small people, with enormous chips on their shoulders, and both drunk on power - exacerbated in the knowledge they have a short tenure.

Throw in staggering incompetence, and it’s a savage combination.

DancingFerret · 22/11/2025 12:39

SouthernAccents · 22/11/2025 12:25

I think they ‘get it’, which is arguably more worrying.

For me it’s two things - vindictiveness and envy, and the naked pursuit of the retention of power.

Both Starmer and Reeves are small people, with enormous chips on their shoulders, and both drunk on power - exacerbated in the knowledge they have a short tenure.

Throw in staggering incompetence, and it’s a savage combination.

Their true characters have become more obvious since they came to power; what they're doing to the UK economy and its people is deliberate and also sinister. Anyone who believes their rhetoric about putting the UK on a firm financial footing is, frankly, not only gullible, but also completely bonkers.

The problem we have as a country is the huge number of their supporters who've been wooed by the promise of continued and increasing benefits. Their votes are assured.

SouthernAccents · 22/11/2025 12:40

Jeremy Hunt - DT

I know first-hand how stressful putting together a Budget can be. On one occasion, flagship childcare measures had to be dropped because we couldn’t afford them. Then a week later, they were reinstated because the Office for Budget Responsibility told me that getting more parents into work would raise GDP by enough to cover nearly all the cost. On one autumn statement I was expecting to have to raise taxes (or find “revenue raisers” in Treasury jargon) when the fiscal forecasts changed dramatically: we ended up cutting employees’ National Insurance and introducing full expensing for businesses.

The only thing that is certain is uncertainty. So at the start of any parliament, it is always sensible to build up headroom. Typically, changing economic forecasts mean a swing of about £20bn – in one direction or another – of margin between budgets. That is an average number and not the maximum possible. So if you really want to be in control of your own destiny, you need headroom of around £30bn. The last chancellor to get close to that was Rishi Sunak in 2022.
So I will support Rachel Reeves if she gets headroom back to more stable levels. But that is where the warm words are likely to end. Because the most disappointing thing about this year’s shambolic Budget process is a constant repetition of the myth that somehow tax rises are “inevitable”. The Chancellor is right to have fiscal rules and stick to them. But to do so she has made a deliberate choice to raise taxes rather than reform welfare. That is a great shame: hiking tax will damage growth whereas overhauling a failing welfare system would boost it.

Since the pandemic something has gone badly wrong in our welfare state. According to the Centre for Social Justice, a million people may soon earn more from welfare than they would working full time at the National Living Wage. For some time now, about a thousand people are being signed off from having to look for work every day, the majority for reasons of mental health. Recently that number has more than doubled, turning a festering problem into a crisis. The result is that we are torpedoing the country’s finances and destroying our national work ethic.

There is an alternative: returning the working age welfare bill to pre-pandemic levels would save £47bn a year in real terms by the end of the fiscal period. Not a single tax rise would be necessary and headroom could be more than doubled.

Sadly after failing to get much smaller welfare reforms past her own backbenchers, the Chancellor has made a different choice. All over the world, countries that are growing faster than us generally have lower taxes. The rest of us are stuck in the economic slow lane. After borrowing £350bn to support families in the pandemic, it was necessary to put up taxes as the last government did. But we always had a plan to bring them down when it was affordable and responsible to do so – a world of difference to where we are today.

Just look at the devastating impact of the tax rises in Labour’s first Budget: 180,000 fewer workers on payrolls following the employers’ National Insurance hike. Family farms and businesses being forced to sell up. Businesses are talking of moving abroad instead of investing at home.
I expect the tax rises this time will be less overtly anti-business. But they will erode incentives to work, save and invest – the very thing a dynamic economy needs. Instead they will fund a bigger public sector as the private sector’s share of the economy shrinks. That, in turn, will make markets even less confident we can repay our debts.

Nor is this about “austerity” although I will always defend George Osborne’s willingness to take difficult decisions in 2010. He inherited an economy where nearly £1 in every £4 being spent by the state was being borrowed – and took action to sort things out.

We all want good public services. The question is how to find a smart way to fund them. Having been responsible for the NHS for longer than anyone else, I know that the only way to secure its long-term future is to make sure the economy grows fast enough to be able to afford to fund the long term pressures it faces. That means increasing spending as a dividend of economic growth – not ahead of it. That’s why the real fiscal rule we should be following is that over an economic cycle public spending will never increase faster than economic growth.

If you unlock economic growth, it becomes possible to find more resources for public services. In 2018, I negotiated with the then chancellor Philip Hammond for a £20.5bn increase in the NHS budget over five years. At the time it was its biggest ever single increase. And the potential of the economy remains strong: in an AI century we have the world’s third largest technology ecosystem. When innovation matters more than ever, we have the most respected universities outside the US. In a world of tariffs on products, we are the world’s second largest services exporter, including one of its largest financial services hubs in London. Despite all the gloom following the last Budget, PWC still said that a survey of 5000 CEOs in over 100 countries rates the UK as the second-most appealing country to invest in globally.

But if we get things wrong in the Budget, we risk fuelling an anti-business narrative that chokes off the growth we need. That’s why the IMF, the World Bank and the OECD all advise that spending-based consolidations harm growth less than raising taxes. The Chancellor should listen, or we will remain stuck in a low growth trap.

Access Restricted

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/14/reeves-nightmare-cutting-britain-broken-benefits/

EasternStandard · 22/11/2025 12:42

SouthernAccents · 22/11/2025 12:25

I think they ‘get it’, which is arguably more worrying.

For me it’s two things - vindictiveness and envy, and the naked pursuit of the retention of power.

Both Starmer and Reeves are small people, with enormous chips on their shoulders, and both drunk on power - exacerbated in the knowledge they have a short tenure.

Throw in staggering incompetence, and it’s a savage combination.

Yes to this.

DancingFerret · 22/11/2025 12:49

Hunt is right.

We've said it repeatedly in this thread, more so as the spectre of Reeves's next disastrous pickpocket Budget looms large - unless and until benefits are cut for all except the truly unwell or needy, the workshy amongst us will continue to lie in their warm beds before rising for another day of leisure and daytime TV.

EmpressoftheMundane · 22/11/2025 13:39

We can’t just blame Labour. It’s the mentality of our countrymen.

I just heard a statement repeating on a Spectator podcast. Wealth taxes are very popular with the public. Even when asked, would they support wealth taxes even if it will raise no additional revenue over 50% of respondents approve of them.

We get the governments that we deserve. As long as “we” are ignorant and spiteful, we will continue to decline.

I understand why so many young people want to leave.

Legolava · 22/11/2025 13:47

This reply has been deleted

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Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 13:48

I agree with what Jeremy Hunt says, but why didn't he cut benefits? Clearly, there is huge opposition to it. This is the problem, and the linger it goes on the harder it becomes to make the necessary changes. Eventually, there are more takers than givers, which is where we are now, and no party wants to take the sweeties away. Then what?

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 13:53

One thing's for sure, we aren't going to get growth when half the population is on state handouts and the other half have left for pastures new. Seriously, what do they all think will happen?

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 13:55

Will they ban us from leaving? Will they force us to work until retirement even if we're self sufficient? How will they finance it? Genuine questions. I have no idea and it scares me.

percypiggy200 · 22/11/2025 14:18

there was a good article in the FT yesterday - the UK has the most progressive tax system in the developed world:

“According to the latest figures from the OECD, 45 per cent of top earners’ salaries goes on taxes and social contributions, compared with 29 per cent for the average worker, for a top-to-middle gap of 16 percentage points. Scandinavian gaps come in at about 12 points. Northern Europe’s social democracies tax everyone from bottom to top at a moderately high rate. In Britain, taxes at the top are comparable to Denmark and Norway but the average Briton is taxed less than the average American.”

”The UK has the worst of both worlds: it collects much less tax revenue from the middle of the income distribution than its European neighbours with better-quality public services, while at the top the combination of high and rising taxes with the abrupt withdrawal of public goods creates bad incentives and resentment all round. The UK’s curious experiment in eating the rich while shrinking the state has left Britons less satisfied with their public services than not only Scandinavians but most Americans, and poorer than not only Americans but most Scandinavians.”

and yet those 46% of net contributors are hated and the majority of the country wants to punish them by imposing a wealth tax even if it raised no revenue.

EmeraldRoulette · 22/11/2025 14:20

@Catatemyhomework I think they were about to do this though - I mean, I think the Tories were about to revisit the welfare situation

One of the things I really struggled with was that I felt the Tories put a lot of mental health issues onto people with their lockdown. However, I am extremely aware that it would've been much worse under Labour.

There were definitely rumblings about it before the election was called

i'm generally very confused by universal credit. There are a couple of people claiming who I'm surprised are able to claim, within my known circle. Both single and child free. One used to work in the City, basically wasted his money trying a hopeless alternativecareer (long story) ....but I now wonder if he deliberately sold and went back into a rental knowing that he could factor UC into his calculations.

SouthernAccents · 22/11/2025 14:21

Catatemyhomework · 22/11/2025 13:55

Will they ban us from leaving? Will they force us to work until retirement even if we're self sufficient? How will they finance it? Genuine questions. I have no idea and it scares me.

Your feelings are completely understandable.

This budget could prove to be the coup de grace for Reeves (and Starmer, by association), if she fails to emphatically address the fiscal deficit (she will not, of course). She is sandwiched between the bond vigilantes, and the back benches.
Worse case scenario? She successfully navigates the two.

I get the argument that who and what follows could well be worse, but I am inclined to approach it from the other angle - without growth, with rising unemployment, with gilt yields blowing out, with sterling falling etc., this government is dead in the water. Heaping tax rises upon rises in such an environment would be the definition of insanity.

In conclusion, conditions may well deteriorate further before they improve, but I genuinely believe that we are approaching the end game. One caveat being, a hope that the economy is still salvageable after all the damage done by this despicable government.

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