Justine says MN is too mean and will tighten-up moderation

[noblegiraffe]

Justine posted this on a low-traffic thread in AIBU and I think it deserves a wider audience than it is currently getting, especially as it is asking posters to report low-level sniping and pile-ons. Perhaps a bigger announcement is planned, I don't know.

"Thanks for raising this - it's something we've been discussing internally as we've noticed the same shift you’re describing and we agree it’s something we need to get a much firmer grip on. Debate is part of Mumsnet’s DNA, but unnecessary meanness isn’t, and it helps absolutely no one.
We’ve already put a plan in place to tighten things up. It’s not just about deleting the really obvious personal attacks, but tackling the low-level sniping and pile ons that drain the life out of threads and discourage people from posting in the first place. That means more proactive involvement from us earlier in a thread, not just sweeping up afterwards.
One thing that really helps is reporting. There are around 25,000 posts a day on here, so we really don’t see that much in real time. If something feels off, please do report it. We promise to read things in context and we’d much rather step in early than let a thread spiral.
Most people on here genuinely want to give support or perspective. When that gets drowned out by needless nastiness, everyone loses. So thank you to everyone who’s raised this. We hear you, we agree with you, and we’re working on it."

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5442610-the-current-state-of-mn-and-how-do-i-stop-reading?reply=148524522&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

there is a reason they are very carefully worded.
And not forgetting that the FWR board about sex and gender exists because the pearl clutchers elsewhere in MN wanted it hidden away. And yet, posts there that break the rules are deleted.

As i mentioned elsewhere: people nowadays are unable to have a conversation, discussion or anything else with someone who disagrees with them. Saying "no men in women's sports" is saying just that. Not hating on trans people etc etc.

I agree it seems much quieter.
But some of the needless pile ons are so awful, often the result of poor literacy and comprehension skills.

I wouldn't ever dream of opening a thread on MN, no matter how stuck.

Simply too vicious.
Clearly others are feeling the same.
Pity.

I agree with you. Too often, the OP is clearly genuinely upset about something, and posters pile on to tell her she’s out of order being upset without showing any insight as to why she might feel the way she does.

There was a thread recently where the OP was struggling with her sister planning to call her baby a similar name to the OP’s baby. If OP had discussed this with a therapist, I reckon she’d have got a lot of compassion. However, she was absolutely jumped on in the thread, and later I saw she’d had it deleted.

It makes me wonder how some posters get on with their friendships in real life.

Do they really though? That's frequently stated on these boards, but I've never actually seen anyone object to a civilised discussion about immigration. What I do see is people objecting to the use of racist language/tropes and/or the spreading of misinformation or disinformation in relation to migration.

If posters with genuine concerns about immigration could approach the subject in a less inflammatory manner, then perhaps reasonable discussions and debates could be had.

I don't think the analogy works because you have to go to school, but you don't have to post on a specific thread on MN. Also you're a grown up.

You don't need to defend your honour to an anonymous stranger/troll on the internet. It's fine to just let them be wrong about you. Let them. Do something else more fun.

It's super tempting to be drawn in but really the only sane response is to report them and carry on with your life. Advanced level zen masters can even actually carry on in the same thread (this really annoys goady posters and they work themselves up into a huge froth over it and get deleted anyway).

Yes but for a board like FWR which prides itself on a perceived high level of debate and intelligence and fair-mindedness it is a very poor look.

I'm old and ugly enough to remember when we used to have some really good debates on FWR (pre-FWR even) and it's nothing like the snide sniping pack behaviour that happens now.

I’m clearly not seeing what you’re seeing.

oh come on. FWR has thread after thread about, say "no men in women's sports" and yet the ploppers will come in with "oh MN hates trans people so much and are full of hate"

and people hear that and don't even engage with what is said over there (so many people proudly announce they have hidden that topic)

it is ONE corner of the site. And yet it attracts TRAs telling women they are hateful for wanting to keep their rights.

Thanks for your civil response. I did say "almost exclusively"!

The gardening I have no problem with and wouldn't on any other MN board TBH, whether it's allowed or not.

I think that the point you made about people from the other side of the GC fence as you call it is that from what I've seen (and I'm not on there all the time), they almost always don't actually go on there for a discussion, but rather to harangue and call people bigots and transphobes. I've been amazed at how patient people are in their responses to start with before they ultimately and reasonably IMO lose patience.

If people of the opposite viewpoint would post in a spirit of genuine debate it would be a fantastic resource for both sides.

Being carefully worded means they are skirting around MN rules. As far as I'm aware crowdfunding is not allowed on MN. Calling it gardening and hinting where the go fund me or whatever can be found wouldn't be allowed elsewhere on MN.

FWR is not hidden. It shows up in Active.

I posted a thread on here back in the summer about being falsely accused of shoplifting. Posters kept insisting i was the Boots sample lady Which im not. it was derailing the thread so i asked MN to comfirm im not her which they did.

Mmm, interesting. I've been on MN since 2006 and hate the way it's changed for the worse, but very obviously this is part of a wider picture - symptomatic of a societal change where people are, on the whole, a hell of a lot nastier to one another. It's been driven by social media and anonymity.

I hope that the meanness won't be replaced with a overarching 'Just Be Kind' ethos, because clearly that isn't what most MNers are here for but from Justine's statement it seems unlikely. The opposite to gratuitous meanness should not be a blanket tolerance of absolutely all views and rolling over backwards to accommodate people.

The issue that MN raises is merely a symptom of wider divisions within society.

Although undesirable, it’s perfectly logical.

I remember that thread, it was bizarre. Though tbh, I had no idea who the Boots sample lady was in the first place, so I had no idea what people were getting at!

FWR is one of the more considered and thoughtful areas of MN. I don't see any hate at all from the regular posters in there. Plenty of deliberate attempts at disinformation and derailing from others though.

If MN is serious about how important reporting posts is, why did they hide the report button during the last disastrous site update? It would be sensible to remove the pointless add post button and put the report button back there.

It is far, far easier to be zen and not give a shit what some goady twat has said about you if you haven't posted anything personal.

I've had five billion insults thrown at me over my time on MN, and it has had basically little to no impact because it's about my opinions or they resort to making stuff up (you sound like a shit teacher, I'm glad you don't teach my child - hah mate, your child you be lucky to have me).

If, however, what you've posted is about yourself, or your kids and you get people telling you you're a selfish twat and you are damaging your children, then that is far less easy to ignore or brush off.

I’m glad to see this. I’ve been on MN for well over a decade - it’s gotten pretty shitty

The point about the "report" button has been made numerous times. Particularly as the pointless "add post" button is so evidently redundant.

MNHQ don't seem inclined to take this suggestion on board. I suppose that they must have their reasons for this. Personally, I find it hard to see it as anything other than an attempt to minimise the number of reports.

Regarding derailing- I've been attacked and have defended myself but when somebody just won't let it go, I say I'm not engaging with them any more and if they persist, I report them.

Neither did I. it was bloody frustrating

Too little and too late Justine.

Last week I reported the same post three times.

The first time I was ignored.

The second time I got ‘we’re looking into it’.

The third time I got ‘yes, it’s a clear personal attack, we’ll delete it’.

Then I saw I can give feedback on the two emails I got (ie the responses to the 2nd and 3rd reports I made).

I gave 5 stars to the last email and was invited to give them a review on Trustpilot.

I gave 1star to the first email and was NOT invited to give them a review.

So Justine, your review will include this response, that you only want my public opinion when things are going well.

Your moderation is a shit show and you deserve the reputation you have.

‘Oh but occasionally everyone pulls together and helps someone’ isn’t good enough. If the readers help one person and rip nine other people to shreds and you sit there and do nothing then you are implicit in that.

You should be ashamed at all the bulling of vulnerable women you have turned a blind eye to, while thread after thread is started along the lines of ‘why is this place so unpleasant to people’.

And because of this atmosphere you have allowed to fester, I have now turned every single notification off so it’s no use anyone giving me a patronising and shitty reply as will probably happen.

people hide it, and it does show up in active for sure, but there is bitching and whining about that.

If you don't think the gardening posts should stand: report them. Just do it. As i said: there is a reason they are carefully worded but if that annoys you, just report.

FWR is constantly targeted by bad-faith posters, ploppers if you will, to get screenshots to post on places like reddit to show how horrible MN is. If you don't like it, don't go there. If you do go there and you see things against the rules, report them.

I use "Add post" all the time as a shortcut for getting to the bottom of a page. Remove it over my dead body.

Oh really? Fair enough! I have never used it once!

What I don't understand is why we need the "add post" on each and every post, as well as along the blue bar at the bottom of the screen. Surely we don't need both?