Justine says MN is too mean and will tighten-up moderation

[noblegiraffe]

Justine posted this on a low-traffic thread in AIBU and I think it deserves a wider audience than it is currently getting, especially as it is asking posters to report low-level sniping and pile-ons. Perhaps a bigger announcement is planned, I don't know.

"Thanks for raising this - it's something we've been discussing internally as we've noticed the same shift you’re describing and we agree it’s something we need to get a much firmer grip on. Debate is part of Mumsnet’s DNA, but unnecessary meanness isn’t, and it helps absolutely no one.
We’ve already put a plan in place to tighten things up. It’s not just about deleting the really obvious personal attacks, but tackling the low-level sniping and pile ons that drain the life out of threads and discourage people from posting in the first place. That means more proactive involvement from us earlier in a thread, not just sweeping up afterwards.
One thing that really helps is reporting. There are around 25,000 posts a day on here, so we really don’t see that much in real time. If something feels off, please do report it. We promise to read things in context and we’d much rather step in early than let a thread spiral.
Most people on here genuinely want to give support or perspective. When that gets drowned out by needless nastiness, everyone loses. So thank you to everyone who’s raised this. We hear you, we agree with you, and we’re working on it."

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5442610-the-current-state-of-mn-and-how-do-i-stop-reading?reply=148524522&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I think everyone is on the Christmas thread!

Great post from Justine, thank you.

I think there used to be a lot more intelligent people on here than now. My heart sinks when I’m reading a genuinely interesting or sympathetic OP and the first response is along the lines of “Well, the first thing you shouldn’t have done is…!”

It’s just twittish and unhelpful one-upmanship and makes me feel like I’ve just walked into a cafe full of really uncool people and want to turn and leave!

(this is a little off topic) the "attacks" on the trans community on FWR largely amount to "no men in women's sports" and "no men in women's prisons" - if you see actual hate, report it and it will be deleted. And since i hang around a bit in FWR i know how that goes.

I often think the same with some of the more contentious threads - offensive content is left to stand because it generates more clicks than reasonable and civilised discussion.

I like AIBU but it does drive a lot of the traffic. People post things in there and get robust AIBU-style answers where they would be much better off in the Relationships board, for eg.

You've completely missed the point there. They absolutely can disagree with me, another poster has disagreed with me but they did that without saying my experience is willfully blind and untrue and pure gaslighting.

It's clear from this thread already that some posters want clamping down on "nasty" posts to include removing posts from people who want to reform/reduce benefits and reform/reduce immigration. Those are actually just huge issues for the public at the moment and if you post a thread saying "AIBU to think the 2 child cap should be lifted" you are going to get plenty of people saying no, as well as some saying yes.

If in the above example you can't cope with people's opinion being "no" then don't post, or read the thread.

People think that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a "Russian bot" despite these being widely held opinions. Sometimes (in the poll) the majority opinion (as 70% voted on that thread for the cap to stay).

So it goes "do you agree with me"
No = nasty.

If mumsnet don't want debate about difficult issues it would be best to remove certain topics and just say discussion immigration/benefits and whatever else is banned. If they want to be a site where people discuss MILs that's fair enough it's their site but if you allow these topics to be discussed you can't shut one side down else what would be the point?

Can they also do something about people derailing threads. I'm fed of enjoying a thread only to have it taken over by 2 people bickering at each other.

Posts on FWR are rarely deleted. Even the blatant 'gardening' threads are allowed to stand. So many threads asking people to donate to causes or someones legal fees wouldn't be allowed to stand elsewhere on MN.

And I suppose we can look forward to a proliferation of the smug single-word ‘Reported’ posts.

The ban on ‘troll hunting’ needs lifting, imo. ‘This can’t be true because [whatever]; now bugger off’ would shut down a lot of the threads that now descend into bunfights. But so many obviously bad faith OPs are let stand. Whyever might that be?

Agree but sometimes the second person who replies is simply sticking up for themselves, It shouldnt become like school where the victim gets punished along with the bully.

Debating benefits, immigration etc. is fine. Directing hate towards immigrants and benefit claimants and spreading misinformation is not. The latter is what happens far too often.

I guess this is part of the problem. There may be lively discussion going on on the Christmas thread but it is basically invisible to me because I'm not on the Christmas thread. I'm also not on the long-running politics threads so my view of MN is that people are not discussing politics, nor Christmas. So when I'm looking down active conversations my brain is filtering out the ads, the 'Thread 1325 What has Trump done now?' type threads and what's left is threads with hardly any posts, or threads where people are screaming at each other.

And if I want to discuss something political and start a thread about it, people who are interested in politics don't join in because they're already talking about it on 'Labour are screwed Thread 1,000,000'.

Wouldn't it be better if we could all learn to discuss difficult issues such as immigration or welfare benefits without resorting to racist/ablist comments?

There's a difference between debate and goady threads full of misinformation about people using their mobility allowance to buy brand new BMWs. Which is the latest one to be started.

I'm quite a regular reader on the FWR board and have been since 2012.

FWR gets away with an awful lot, flying just under the line of what is acceptable.

Crowdfunding is not allowed on MN but there is a LOT of crowdfunding on FWR under the guise of "gardening".

Where someone who isn't on the GC side of the fence comes along they are roundly piled on - not necessarily insulted or attacked (although that does happen too), but are drowned out through sheer volume with lots of posters just repeating the same things and sealioning at them, which isn't tolerated when it's the other way around.

Then there is the filling-threads-up-with-recipes tactic, designed to shut down dissenting voices.

FWR also has an awful lot of threads that I think are just in bad taste and an excuse to have a laugh or a dig - see the current "transadmiral" thread. Nothing to do with trans people or feminism at all. There are also lots of posts and threads which do nothing but mock peoples appearances, to say nothing of the threads where a woman's photos are posted with "is this a man??" commentary.

There's no denying it's an extremely problematic area of the site and frankly I think it's a crying shame that it's become what it has.

But who decides who’s deluded/wrong? To me that’s opinion, and you can’t think that because you think that person is deluded that they must have their post deleted. Pile ons and nastiness I agree, but certainly wouldn’t want posts reported just to satisfy someone’s decision that a particular poster is deluded. In their opinion.

I agree on Reddit, the areas I frequent which are kind of similar to the ones here are no where near as nasty (I can't think of the right word it's not nasty really it's the race to the bottom replies and the martyring op's). I wonder though if it's because on Reddit they don't have an aibu so for example people posting about horrible mothers will go on a topic which has other people on there with similar experiences - so you never get the my mum is dead I'd give anything to have her back when the op is asking advice about some awful treatment at the hands of her mother. There is also less of a drip feed, people write long first posts and seem to include a lot of detail.

There are some areas I won't go near, the posts I see about JKR, well the headline I wouldn't go on them seem to be very anti her .

I don't think that's what people are saying at all.

There's a huge difference between debate with robust opinions, and people posting outright bollocks and insults just to try and get attention, or to be controversial.

But some people decide that the fact you’re debating immigration at all is racist….

I agree that posters shouldn't be deleted simply because someone disagrees with them. But some posts are just factually incorrect, and wherever possible, disinformation should be deleted. Unfortunately, that relies on the moderators having the time and skill to be able to investigate, so more often than not, the disinformation is left to stand.

Don't look at Active, it's a hellscape. Instead add the topics you actually enjoy and use My Feed instead. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/my-feed/following

Fastest way to improve your experience of MN.

Agree, I love Reddit comment humour! It makes me cry with laughter sometimes.

I reported a post that compared an author who’d used some adjectives a few people didn’t like (but had otherwise done a lot of good all in) with Jimmy Savile. It got picked up by The Times but the comment is still there.

Well what do you think is the norm when someone goes onto a board with an opinion that goes against science and material reality, that goes against what the majority of those that post on that board think, and that their opinion is potentially harmful to women and girls but if you don’t adhere you are called phobic and bigots?

To be presented with examples, lived experience and evidence to the contrary by many is considered a ‘pile on’ and ‘sealioning’. It’s like if I went onto a board on space insisting the earth is flat and getting surprised and offended when the majority disagree and a ‘pile on’ ensues.