If you could design an education system for children with ADHD and/or autism...

[TheRolyPolyBard]

... what would it look like?

I'm just curious. A family member is recently diagnosed and struggling in school. If you could design schools around the needs of these children, what would your imaginary school look like? What hours would they be in? What would classrooms look like? Would there be any classrooms?

Caveat: it needs to be affordable for the UK, so nothing too fantastic!

I'm wondering if a school system which suits NT and ND children is actually possible.

Level one or self diagnosed? Just a thought.

Surely this is a little short sighted. What happened to the children that then can’t cope? Surely failing them at this point costs more in the long run. You don’t help help children to fit in and cope and stay regulated by just telling them they have to. The point is to support them to be able to contribute to society.

What does this mean?

Some kids can't cope and they will be failed. Lots of kids get nothing from school, leave without qualifications after having had a terrible time and have uncertain futures with minimum work and the expectation of poverty. If you can teach a child to conform or cope it will always be in their best interests and help them be employed in the future. Once they're over 18 the system stops pretending to care.

That’s not the main issue - the main issue is that teachers have to set up all that equipment to be able to use it to run the lesson, and that takes time, during which the kids are going batshit. So much lesson time wasted if the teacher has to take five minutes getting to the room then five minutes logging on, opening their resources, opening the register and then getting the class settled before they can think about teaching.

It’s literally no comparison to a kid having to get their book out.

Education does have to balance the interests of all concerned.

I am a SEN mum but also a classroom teacher.

Having to move classroom every lesson does have major impact on teaching. It shaves a minimum of 5-10 minutes off the start of every lesson, means you can't use specialist equipment, are limited to what you can carry, and the classrooms get into a tip because there's no ownership. Schools also have limited amounts of office space (I have no desk or storage space other than in my classroom) so being peripatetic means no-where to do paperwork or meet students. Imagine hotdesking without a desk!

I would probably quit if I had to teach in 5 classrooms a day tbh. I'm knackered enough as it is!

@TheLivelyRose we see the opposite in my line of work. ND young adults are rightly expecting the reasonable adjustments be made for them that they’ve had in school and that the law requires employers to make and there is way more willingness I think to make changes needed.

There is a huge talent pool in ND adults and many employers are getting more disability confident.

Regarding the self-employment part though, that's realistic for students with the PDA autistic profile and no doubt some others. Something like 15% of workers are self-employed I think?

There are also increasingly remote options.

If you want to avoid conventional office work, you absolutely can.

@Needlenardlenoo if you are meaning me, I don’t have 3 with EOTAS/EOTIS. I have 3 with EHCPs, but only 2 have EOTAS/EOTIS. DS2 is in MS, thankfully.

School placements are cheaper than proper EOTAS/EOTIS packages. DS1&3’s EOTAS/EOTIS packages are incredibly expensive. A proper EOTAS/EOTIS package isn’t the cheap option some think it is. The problem is the half-hearted rubbish LAs try to fob people off with.

@muminherts if Needle meant me, I know when and how to enforce provision, and I do enforce it. That isn’t the issue. The issue is the constant chasing of the LA. The EOTAS/EOTIS co-ordinator we have as part of their packages and I shouldn’t have to chase. It should be done when it is supposed to be done. Just like all the other chasing, enforcing and advocating. I shouldn’t have to chase for SEP to be provided. I shouldn’t have to chase DPs. I shouldn’t have to chase the LA to comply with AR timescales. They should make the necessary amendments without a fight. They should comply with SENDIST’s directions and Orders fully and on time without me having to do anything. The LA should accept they have a transport duty without constantly quibbling and fulfil that duty by paying DS2’s PTB without having to be chased and paying the DPs for DS1&3’s transport (not technically PTBs because of how my LA fund transport for EOTAS/EOTIS DC) without having to be chased. They should pay complaint and LGO settlements on time without chasing.

Hi @flawlessflipper I did mean you but I didn't think there was any need to name you as it was a general point about the power balance, when anything educational is outsourced to small scale contractors.

Once when I was trying to get paid by the NHS, they said the delay was because "the lady who does A-D is on holiday" (!) (My surname begins with A).

Apologies for my slight inaccuracy though.

@flawlessflipper I’m so so sorry to hear you’ve been messed around so much. As you say parents should be able to rely on public bodies complying with the law, not needing to constantly chase.

I have spoken in the past with other SEND parents on local forums who don’t know how to enforce their rights which means they are completely defenceless when these things happen, which is so unfair.

It is hard enough to be a SEND parent every day without the additional
layers of both fighting to get the support in place and then fighting to actually get what vulnerable children are entitled to.

@Needlenardlenoo you don’t have to apologise. I just didn’t want you thinking I had three with EOTAS/EOTIS. Two is more than enough! I wish I could say your NHS example was surprising.

@muminherts it is relentless and exhausting, isn’t it? You are right, knowledge is power.

I have worked with some ND people who are immensely talented , who have benefited the organisation with just small reasonable adjustments. But even if the ultimate goal is just to conform, surely you can see you can’t just tell people to conform and then they will. Unless we just completely give up on people, but that’s surely not acceptable either. Everyone may need adjustment and support during their education for a range of reasons.

There are many talented ND people who will not meet their potential or enter the workplace because they were told they couldn't/didn't have to xyz in school. I think we're coming at it from different view points, you work with ND but my son is 16 next week and doing GCSEs so my focus and views will be based on him. This thread is a thought experiment for a utopian school and it's fun, but in real life I don't have time to wait for it (also there is no real appetite for it or funding and the scope is ridiculously wide like all the presentations of autism/adhd).

He has a 3/4 year window to get to uni or apprenticeship and become comfortable enough to interview and get a job, follow instructions, complete tasks. My job is to make sure other people don't close doors for him and make assumptions based on his diagnosis. He's got an EHCP and support is good, my son will get a laptop to do his English and Literature GCSEs, but he's very strong in Maths and Computer Science so doesn't have adjustments there and will hopefully work in a field related to this. He has an english tutor to get the 4/5 we need to do A levels and he will be doing social skills training and interview practice in Year 12. He's also very weak at conversational speech, being non verbal till 7, so we're building a programming portfolio with him so he can "show not tell" at interview, which he's not great at. These are the things I need for my ND child and I find I'm the one identifying and organising it as I know him better than school and am invested in him succeeding. You say "Unless we just completely give up on people, but that’s surely not acceptable either", you must know "we" give up on people al the time, especially when they become adults.

I think we are but my point is, I agree that ultimately we are preparing people for life/ workplace , but just telling ND people they have to cope doesn’t often work. We may have to offer support to them to get them to that place. It doesn’t mean it’s forever, it’s to help them understand to regulate/ cope etc. people can only mask for so long. We are aiming for a similar end point, but it’s ok for that journey to look a little different for everyone.

I am not comfortable really with giving up on children I’m afraid and you are not to convince me that is over ok. Plus if we got things things right earlier and identified needs there would be less issues later down the line. You are obviously doing great things for your child, I think all children should have opportunities.

It amazes me that there are thousands of different work environments and working patterns open to adults that reflect different strengths, weaknesses and personal preferences yet we expect all children to attend broadly the same school environment. The notion that special schools are somehow inferior and that inclusion is the ideal solution needs to stop. Different schools for different kids is what we need. Each one funded properly and each respected in their own right.

Oh I see.

I was reflecting on my 15 year teaching career rather than commenting on the year 2010 specifically. Although the real terms spend per student still hasn't recovered to where it was in 2010, but costs are up significantly, as I explained.

So more need, with less to spend, against a backdrop of rising costs and a significant backlog maintenance bill.

Frightful!