If you could design an education system for children with ADHD and/or autism...

[TheRolyPolyBard]

... what would it look like?

I'm just curious. A family member is recently diagnosed and struggling in school. If you could design schools around the needs of these children, what would your imaginary school look like? What hours would they be in? What would classrooms look like? Would there be any classrooms?

Caveat: it needs to be affordable for the UK, so nothing too fantastic!

I'm wondering if a school system which suits NT and ND children is actually possible.

And this think is why there needs to be a greater range of school types. Not all schools for all children, but often there is no choice. Everything is so rigid.

Where do you suggest the funding comes for this? Separate schools or separate classes for every single possible eventuality of neurodiversity?

Do you suggest the funding comes from out of the nhs out of welfare? Out of the defence budget. Where?

Everybody's going crazy at the potential tax rises.So you all want greater range services, but no one wants to pay for it.

I think we could just provide more choice, that doesn’t have to cost more money at all. And so much money is wasted fixing problems that if needs were addressed earlier wouldn’t need fixing. So much can be provided cost free if we are a little more open minded.

Please tell me how it can be improved and changed cost free. I'm genuinely all ears. Please tell me the plan.

It will always come down to money.
I would increase the number of special schools. If the children with the highest needs were able to get places then mainstream schools would be able to focus effectively on the children who can be included with the right support.
I would also invest massively in mental health support for children, both ND and NT. I think a lot of the difficulties that ND children have in mainstream schools is not the ND so much as the resulting anxiety and social difficulties. If they could be supported with that they might be able to cope better with the other things they struggle with.

I think it would really depend on the individual DC and what they would like...I liked my fairly strict and 'old fashioned' mainstream school. I have dyspraxia and a few sensory issues (a couple of people have suggested autism but I've never pursued it..)

The things I liked where that we had jumpers or polo shirts (and skirts or trousers) instead of shirts and blazers, and that the classes (at least the top sets) were calm and quiet. I would have hated more practical work (I found DT a bit scary and stressful, especially the weird lighting we had in the DT rooms and the constant noise).

Of course it will cost more money.

Choice of secondary schools? You must live in London.

I did well in many respects in a strict girls’ boarding school in the 70s. It was a bit like being in the army. You just followed orders as they came in. Prep time was silent, long and unskippable. The headmistress was slightly demented and had a heavy walking stick which we were never really sure she wouldn’t use. In some ways it was awful for me, but it gave me cast iron understanding of expectations (and how hard they were to meet). So while the process at the time was painful, sad and full of self loathing, I had the skill set to survive when a life curve ball turned me into a homeless, unemployed and deeply depressed teenager.

My brother (also with ADHD) would have shrivelled and died in a place like that. He could barely cope with the confines of a fairly lax state school. And he had me and my skill set to look after him when the same life curve ball knocked him for six too. Whereas I had his very “live in the moment” mindset to keep me sane during the Bitter Years.

My sister on the other hand needed a much more gentle approach and protection from bullying. She flourished in a PRU after school refusing (caused by the same Life Curveball). On paper it looked like the worst of all worlds. But she ended up with loads of one on one attention. I think the teachers there must have been delighted to have somebody so biddable (as long as you didn’t try to make her go to school) teachable and desperate to learn, and she went on to get a hard science PHD.

We are very different people despite our diagnosis in common. So I can’t really come up with an ADHD friendly school idea because what worked better for one of us, was horrendous for the other two. I spiralled downwards in the same state school my brother attended after I left boarding school. It was so noisy, chaotic and not at all “army-like”. I was hyper vigilant all the time cos my senses were overwhelmed, and most of the teachers didn’t have the sort of expectations I could stress myself into trying to get close to. So I stopped bothering.

And that’s before you factor in my Uncle, his daughter my cousin and both her kids, who are also very different people despite, or maybe because of, the ADHD we have in common.

I didn’t even realise my son had ADHD when he was little. His is much less obvious than mine. I homeschooled him in desperation because he was miserable in our local school. However I outsourced the actual teaching to an online school. While it has done lots for him in many ways, I still wonder if the lack of rough and tumble in a school setting delayed his ability to feel confident with his peers in all settings, rather than just organised sports and clubs.

If you ever find the right formula give me a shout. My maternal line is still chugging out a fresh supply of +ADHD members at a steady rate. We seem to have fewer without it than with it.

Just thinking about my son who is Autistic, suspected ADHD, mainstream year 1 with an EHCP and a 1:1.

More outside time and more movement breaks generally
Smaller classes and smaller schools (the playground is quite hectic)
I love the idea of pets.
Quieter lunchtimes (e.g. separate rooms rather than one huge hall)
Reduce the national curriculum goals to allow more time for things like outdoor learning and learning based on the child's interests.
Keep a predictable routine
No uniform or more flexible uniform options. My son can wear whatever he's comfortable in anyway but I'm not sure all schools do this.
Automatic option to delay year R start for summer born children.
More staff as needed (my son wouldn't be able to attend at all without his 1:1 due to anxiety)

Quite ,and it's a huge spectrum, my son is 15 but cognitively around 2/3 he's been in a special school since reception ,it would be ridiculous, for him to be in the same class as a highly academic child with autism just because they share a diagnosis.

I agree with posters who point out that the needs for ND students vary massively so it's very difficult to design a single system. The main thing I think that would make the difference is smaller class sizes, with teachers trained in different aspects of ND so that they can make adjustments themselves, wihtin these smaller classes, to accomodate the unique challenges of each group of children.

Smaller classes allow more flexibility and would make the most difference. But it's also the most expensive - you need more space, more teachers etc.

The whole bloody system needs an overhaul and updating, not just for ND children.

I'd love to see a huge move away from academia for children that clearly would be benefit from a focus on learning practical, financial, life skills etc, retaining a degree of core maths and English skills. Much like many kids do once they escape the doldrums of school and start college. This needs to be begin years before, not at 16.

We're simply failing so many children that leave school not benefiting from the decade plus that they've suffered at the hands of state education. That time could have been so much better spent for their benefit.

The natural curiosity and desire to learn of every child needs to be tailored to suit the individual child, not to suit the education system itself which is what it currently does.

as a teacher of children with MLD, autism and adhd for 20 years, basically this

plus there’s not where near the budget (and by that I mean schools AND SALT/ OT provision) we had 20 years ago. It’s 50 % less in real terms (I have been told by our SALT.)

No idea but following with interest, since DS2 (age 7) just started school (abroad) and has severe ADHD which is massively affecting his ability to sit and focus and not disturb the entire class at school 🙈he's already been held back the max he can and I'm not sure "more time" would honestly help at this point. (I do think it has helped a bit - he is actually able to understand phonics now, which is amazing because I was worried he might never get there).

Aside from medication, which we are now turning the wheels on, and some sensory input which I'm unsure if it will be enough, I have no idea what to do for him. The perfect school for him would probably look like a highly trained and experienced 1:1 who can lead him through something like "unschooling" but targeting the salient points of the curriculum as well. No other children, because he can't seem to fight the urge to show off. He can come up with some incredible things when he's following his own interests and curiosity but it's very difficult for him to keep his attention on something that is boring him. However he is curious and it's not impossible to spark his curiosity on the more "dull" topics - it's just he likes to explore things in his own way rather than the way the school wants him to do it (in this country, class 1 is rather dull worksheets involving drawing a number multiple times along a line).

I suppose on a more practical level, he could simply do with more breaks and tasks broken down - he struggles to remember and follow multi-step directions, which causes problems because he will try to start the task after he has heard about half of the first instruction and then just guess at what comes next which exasperates the teachers. He does better with an environment where he is given a goal and he can try all sorts of approaches to achieve that goal, rather than being told all the steps to replicate in order. He will be receptive to hearing the steps but only after he's exhausted his own ideas.

Smaller classes, less admin pressure on teachers, and a less prescriptive curriculum would benefit all children.

Less corridor chaos would help during transition times. I think changing classrooms is a good idea as it provides movement breaks and sensory breaks, so I would like schools to be designed with wider corridors with echo-damping ceiling panels.

Having proper spaces where children can go to for supported study, as well as to self-regulate. My dc’s school used every scrap of space available, even cupboards and the space under the stairs. They would move wheeled dividers around in the hall to accommodate 3-4 different intervention groups at a time. But only space-wise, it was still one noisy room. Add to that the blackout tent in one corner, which was one autistic child’s safe space, and the spinning chair in another corner, which was another autistic child’s self-regulation space.

Having plenty of auxiliary staff available to support children and teachers. TAs and LSAs with regular training, who are given the chance to really get to know the children, not just parachuted into 3 different classes every day, running from crisis to crisis.

On line school ,run by the government,so children that are withdrawn from school to be home educated, because they have SEN ..have access to an on line classroom at home where teacher teaches the same lesson as they would of received in school.
Also exams included,done on line or in a small exam centre.
It would be fairly easy to set up ,with one teacher being fined teaching and hundreds of child logged in to learn .
Homework could be multiple choices to help understand subjects and as the children could not see or hear each other ,only see and hear the teacher ,any child could attend the on line lesson of any age group..so if you were behind in maths ,but ahead in history,you a justed that when logging on .
I actually think a lot of parents would take this up ,and free up a lot of school places and save the country a huge amount in the cost of ehcps

Filmed..not fined

I don’t think I was very clear at all. I don’t mean it won’t cost anything, I mean I think we should look at how money is spent. Big scale thinking. The whole system needs re thinking. Spend more in the early years for a start and that will save money down the line. Less
pressure early on, ensure children love learning, can regulate emotionally etc More time playing and outside.

We should where possible ensure there is a choice of schools, some children will suit a strict rigid style of school, others need a more relaxed approach. The problem is people are not getting any choice. I live semi rurally, there is a secondary school in my village and a few others within a short drive. Ideally these should offer different things. I appreciate it’s difficult for more rural areas. An ideal solution costs lists of money. But improvements could definitely be made by thinking differently. The education system is very set in its ways, not helped by a very rigid curriculum that doesn’t suit everyone. We expect all children to meet certain expectations at a certain time, and it’s not helpful. The new expectations that 90% of children pass the phonics screening test is ridiculous. There needs to be more opportunities for children to learn at their own pace in their own way. Especially in the earliest years.

I also appreciate that for many children they need way more than these small adjustments, but if small adjustments were made to ensure more children accessed education, that would leave more opportunities for those that need specialist provision.

Many SEN kids manage perfectly well in private schools. Smaller class sizes and regular breaks are the top most important as well as spaces to run, sit quietly and get support from someone who is properly trained.
Copy the private system rather than forcing them to close.

There's loads of interesting ideas here, and loads of clashing ones!

I'm seeing a lot of:

• smaller classes (cost? £££)
• more flexibility for teachers to adjust what/how they teach
• more options for less academic outcomes
• accepting that not all ND children can be accommodated in mainstream
• comfy school uniform
• more outside time, more chill time

I think the point about needing to prepare children for the reality of life is important (at least in the later stages of school). I suppose it comes down to what do we want school to achieve for all children?

• social skills
• some life skills (parents also responsible here)
• reasonable academic skills, enough to function in everyday life
• employability in at least some types of work

This should be achieved without making the children unhappy. Obviously many children will be able to get more than this out of school, but I assume that's the bare minimum we are aiming for?

A neuroinclusive model of education would recognise that children learn at different rates and develop in different ways. Children with ASD are often 2-3 years behind their peers in maturity and it is doing everyone a complete disservice to think they can all finish school at the same time with the same skills. Growing a learning culture, which provides a more flexible approach to education across the board, would be a game changer.

Interestingly enough, my daughter and I were watching Educating Yorkshire (first series) and when she saw the isolation room with its little cubicles she said she wished she could sit in one of those for her lessons!
She is not diagnosed, but struggles with the busyness/noise/disruption of school and would much prefer a quiet space to herself to just get on with her work.

Smaller class sizes would help everyone.

I was going to say exactly this!

My DS2 is diagnosed with autism, ADHD & epilepsy & is quite heavily affected by it, but he doesn't fit most people's ideas of what this should look like. He seeks loud noises, including hand driers, thrives on surprises, will eat any food & his seizures are very rarely tonic clonic so he doesn't have rescue meds. What he does need is extra time to do everything, memory support & teaching of social skills & life skills. And of course another child with the same diagnoses will look completely different to him.

Online school didn't work that well for a lot of children/families during the pandemic. So I am not sure this would have so many people wanting to take it up.

One teacher teaching hundreds also means you can't have back and forth - so it may as well be pre-recorded videos, lecture style - this doesn't usually work very well esp for younger pupils, although it does have the advantage that everyone doesn't need to log in and be present at once. You could have these lectures designed and delivered more like a CBBC programme, like Maddie's Do You Know, or Hannah Fry's Secrets of Modern Life for older children. But also I think a lot of sitting down looking at a screen is not good and it's easy to tune out if you're not interested.

It might be that it's possible to do a sort of "choose your own adventure" thing - where a teacher records a lesson in a studio, and they are presented with example "pupils" who have different difficulties or questions or difficulties with different aspects of the task, and they record a custom response for each difficulty at each step and then a programmer weaves this all into a sort of decision tree. That would mean that a parent or pupil could pause the video at any point and select from a series of options about what they need help with. This could probably also be done with AI, and I would expect that will be something which we'll see developed over the next few years. How successful it will be or not I am not sure, and how you'd police it for accuracy, I don't know. But you could probably present AI with the curriculum and a lot of the background or evidence base for the topic in question and that may be a system that could be tried.

OTOH I think teachers have a very human connection that AI doesn't - I was playing a game the other day which was a silly thing where you have cards to combine to answer a question, and then an AI bot reads everyone's responses, judges the best one and provides a humorous commentary - it was quite fun, but there were a lot of things which confused it, for example one prompt was "Best prison name" which all of us human players interpreted as the best name for someone to give themselves in prison in order to intimidate other prisoners or not get bullied etc. But the AI in its judging took the prompt literally, and responded as though it was judging the best name for a prison. Which, I mean, it's factually true, but it's probably not what the people creating the game intended. And I think the problem with children and particularly young and/or ND children, is that what they literally say is not necessarily what they actually mean, or might require some lateral thinking to interpret. A good teacher gets to know their pupils and can interpret what they mean, or knows what questions to ask to get to the bottom of it.