Feeling such rage at DS7, please help

[DespairInDarkness]

DS' sleep has been awful the last few weeks, waking me every couple of hours or so and it is at the point of feeling like absolute torture now.

Tonighe he woke me at 12 (barely half an hour after I'd fallen asleep), then again at 2 and kept us awake til 4. At that point I'd been on his bedroom floor for 2 hours so decided to go back to my bed. He came back through within 5 minutes and we had to start all over again.

At that point I'm ashamed
to admit I screamed/cried/begged at him to lay down and go to sleep. It took him 40 minutes, he's now asleep and i'm too scared to move, but aching so much lying on the floor. As I was dozing on and off earlier, I had visions of gettiing in the car and speeding up and crashing so I could sleep.

I just want him to not need me, to leave me alone at night, I want personal space, I want to sleep.

I don't need tips on how to help his sleep I don't think as we have tried it all at this point but I need advice on staying sane and not turning into an awful mother.

I've had 2 hours sleep and need to be up for work in an hour, the only thing stopping me from bursting into tears is the fear of waking him

Get him off the internet. Entirely. Totally. Only allow a screen when he is sitting right in front of you and you can see it. Yes, of course you can do this. Fuck only knows what he's seen or been exposed to.

Keep him off school for a week, spend the week doing anything that does not involves screens. Monitor everything. Make sure he's eating well and getting plenty of fresh air and exercise..

If no improvement, see your doctor.

There will be an improvement.

Don't pretend this is too hard or that you can't do it, you can. I am not interested at all in anyone claiming their life is too "insert excuse" for this. If you knew your child was going to end up dead or in hospital if you didn't do this, you'd do it. So do it.

I won't be reading any responses. You want advice, this is my advice.

Sorry if these have already been mentioned but what works with my 5 year old is staying with her for a bit but then telling her Im going to bed now, that she can keep putting tonies on until she falls asleep and that it doesn't matter if she doesn't fall asleep as long as she lays there with her eyes closed then she will be resting enough to get up the next day (which always makes her fall asleep, I think taking the pressure off having to be asleep makes it easier for them - I remember my own mum saying this to me!)
And failing that, get a little roll out bed you can put near your own bed, he can just get into that himself in the night if he needs to.

Struggling to sleep is a classic sign of anxiety though so when you are better rested have a think is there anything going on for him right now that he's struggling with?

Good luck

My DS was similar for a few years, after sleeping fine for the first few years of his life. It turned out to be that his adenoids were enlarged, he was waking due to them after a few hours of sleep and then he struggled to get back to sleep. He had surgery to remove them and slept through from the day he had surgery!

Both my DC have co-slept at stages in their life. My 12 year still sometimes does. They are perfectly well adjusted, go on sleep overs and school trips of a week plus. It’s very cruel to force a child to sleep on their own if they are not comfortable.

If you want sleep, this can’t continue.

You don’t want to co sleep and don’t want to risk the younger sibling wanting to join.

Therefore, you have to stop facilitating this.

Tell him, only in an emergency can he come in and wake you up, explain what an emergency is and what it isn’t. When he’s at the door, get up and tell him softly -off to bed. Do not return with him to his room. If he complains, cries, keep calm and repeat off to bed. Return to your own bed, knowing there’s no emergency and he will settle.

We all go through times where it’s hard to sleep, but this has become a bad habit that’s affecting your well being. Giving more of yourself when you don’t have it to give- has left with thoughts of self harm to facilitate sleep. This can’t go on.

He will be fine, he won’t crumple into a ball of anxiety because he sees his mother acting in a loving and authoritative way. It actually makes children feel safe having boundaries.

Peridot1 Yes my DD was like this .It does make me think though ,that as a child you spend a lot of time with Mum and Dad. And then at night are supposed to be on your own in your room ,while they are together all night!

This sounds like very ingrained behaviour OP and not something that you're going to crack in a night or two. When our eldest (ADHD) was a nightmare for sleep, DH and I nearly separated as the sleep deprivation was just torture - and when she started disturbing her younger siblings we went to the GP who referred us to a sleep specialist we saw privately.

We had a cast iron plan written down that we both read daily, and they explained to us that we had to be rigid and repetitive (far from easy when you're so exhausted). It took nearly a month to see any positive results but we did get that she was asleep by 11pm and staying in her room all night. I would find someone to help you with this, because although the anxiety he's feeling may be very real it also sounds like he's pushing some boundaries with the whole water thing.

I think a psychologist is a good idea. And hold onto the idea that there WILL be a last time he wakes you. You won't even know it's the last time when it happens, but it will happen.

At 7, with a child who is clearly in "fight or flight" not using his thinking brain at 3am (does anyone really?) focus on what you can change in the daytime. Lots of exercise, lots of interaction with you in the evenings and a chance to process and talk about his day. Maybe a dedicated time for doing that every evening, but not too close to sleep time. Maybe a much later bedtime - if he gets say 4 good hours of sleep before he wakes you on a good night, you want those hours to coincide with the time you're asleep. So don't put him to bed hours before you. In the west we like our child free evenings but they are not essential for life - unlike sleep which is - and everything is temporary with kids.

I think you probably need some professional advice. We were told proper darkness is very helpful and boosts melatonin production (you've got 2 problems really, first that he wakes at all and second that he then needs you. If you can address the first the second goes away.). But if he is scared of the dark of course getting rid of any nightlight may not be possible.

I think that twilight exercise (trampoline park, soft play, swimming) and dedicated "talking about our day walks" made more difference than anything we did or didn't do in the middle of the night. Once he's woken and decided he needs you you're into survival mode and nothing you do then is really the solution.

My daughter is like this (nearly 13!), goes through bouts of having to co sleep.
something happens (movie, story on the news, book) and tips her. I just go with it and let come in and often a change of scenery (may be a holiday) will reset her and she’s stay in own bed.
the bouts are getting further apart.
Apparently, a child feels safest in their parremt’s bed and that ‘fact’ stayed with me. I dint want my daughter waking up in her bed and laying there feeling scared so I’ve always made my bed open to her (with the condition she gets in the middle and we have a super king) .

as my mum said, she won’t still be doing it at 18!

A complete lack of boundaries will just add to his anxiety. A child needs to feel safe, secure and contained and their parent is their rock. The OPs son is clearly anxious, to the extent that it is impacting his sleep. He needs an adult prescence for comfort and security and OP is getting up repeatedly to sleep beside him. I agree with previous posters that the co sleeping is needed, and will eventually run its course. However, demanding she lie a certain way, waking her when she’s beside him to reposition her, screaming for different water- this cannot be tolerated and needs consequences. Otherwise it’s going to lead to a very dysregulated little boy, a damaged relationship between him and his parents,exhausted OP and a knock on effect on the younger child.

There is no way I would be tolerating this age 7. I would spent a weekend doing as much activity as possible during the day , no TV even. I would explain that bed time is bed time and you will check him in the night but he cannot leave his room unless to go to toilet otherwise no XYZ it’s sleeping time and everyone needs to rest or they will be unwell.
if he didn’t do it I would give a punishment in terms of taking something away. Next step I would go to a family Members or hotel and leave him with dad and say I need to sleep and I’ll come back in the morning if you stay in bed all night. It’s non negotiable.

Don't rage at him, he might need a sleeping aid.
Why are you sitting on the floor, would he ever sleep independently?
If not, he's automatically looking for you when he wakes.
Teach him to sleep independently.

just a suggestion, but have you tried a weighted blanket? You mentioned he twitches loads and wakes himself.

honestly though, I would be at the end of my tether by now and telling him he is not to wake us in the night full stop. If he’s scared then cuddle his teddy and go back to sleep (or not) but don’t wake us up. I partly think he just knows he can wake you and so is making no effort to self-soothe (which he did for years previously).

I also used to do this as a kid. However my parents would have had none of it. My older brother was in his late teens when I went through this phase and I would just grab my pillow and nip into bed beside him. He’d budge over to let me in but didn’t otherwise really wake up for me. I felt comforted and he didn’t seem bothered by me turning up. It just stopped.. I think it probably was school driving it for me.

I had both mine in the bed for years, when they did move out they then shared a double bed with each other until the eldest was about 12 maybe. I can’t remember quite when she moved into her own bedroom. This was the thing that got most of us the most sleep.
Eldest has always struggled with going off to sleep, and younger was prone to night terrors at a certain point in her sleep cycle, and would wake every night at around the same time. I ended up staying up later so that I would be awake when she woke as that was better than being woken up, which wasn’t great .
Eldest is quite anxious as a person and although she sleeps soundly when actually asleep, still struggles with going to sleep. When things are stressful (she’s a student) this gets worse. Things that have helped her over the years - 1.Deep Sleep pillow spray by This Works. There are various ones, some for children.
2.Not missing the sleep window. Is your ds possibly going to sleep slightly too late ? Being anxious about sleep and/or overtired can mean going to sleep later and missing the right point in the cycle, aiming for an earlier bedtime can help.
3.Vitamin supplements like magnesium sprays, also daily omega 3. Also Rescue Remedy night time stuff, either drops or little chews. These help a child or adult get back to sleep when woken and anxious.
4.Being properly tired out physically not just mentally frazzled and exhausted.
5.Taking as much heat out of the situation as possible. So for you that might mean just putting an extra bed (or larger bed) in your room and saying to him that if he feels scared he can just come in. Or just letting him start the night there anyway. Ask him what actually helps when he feels scared. Talk to him and reassure him that even adults feel scared in the night sometimes, that it’s part of evolution and normal, and that as he gets bigger he will feel this less. Make things as funny and silly as possible to reduce all the tension that has naturally built up over this.
A large cuddly animal who protects him in his sleep, stories about all the little creatures like mice, who live their lives the other way round and are happily pottering about in the dark, not scared at all, this kind of thing can be reassuring.
Slightly ‘younger’ and familiar bedtime stories can be very comforting.
Sharing a room with a sibling can help.
Dd had melatonin for a while as a teenager, it did really help her get to sleep, but also gave her such deep sleep that she had nightmares, so she didn’t use it for very long.
Also- and this is really hard, but does help, just accepting that nights will be a bit broken for a while. I’ve found that when I railed against things and felt furious it just made everything worse as my children could sense it and it just made them more worried and less able to cope. Accepting the life stage and staying as relaxed as possible can shift it all more quickly, as the anxiety on all sides can be fuel on the fire. This is obviously easy to type and hard to do, but staying as calm internally as possible is the thing to aim for. Also laughing about it as much as possible. 7 is a funny age I think, it’s when bigger fears creep in, and for highly strung and hyper sensitive children this can mean issues with sleep. Your ds making you move your head etc, this sounds as though he is incredibly overtired and over anxious and wants to make order out of what feels like chaos to him, but being given too much power isn’t great for children, he needs to know the adults are in control as this is reassuring. So that is the thing I would put my foot down about. Eg “ok ds, you are a bit anxious at the moment about sleep and school etc, this is normal, it can be stressful sometimes. It will get better. You are probably worried about waking me up and of course people get grumpy when woken a lot, so let’s have a little think about what might work for all of us, what do you suggest ? I want to listen and work something out, but I am the boss and here to look after you, so you can’t boss me about in the middle of the night. If I let you, then you would be in charge of everything, and as you are little that would be very scary for you. Little people need bigger people in charge’ .
I think most parents have times when something is a battleground and feels as though it will never end, but it always does. Good luck OP.

I would add put him on the dad’s side of the bed. Just gave him sleep there not on mom’s side. Snuggled up against dad.

OP, I wish I had a silver bullet but I just wanted to say you're doing a great job, and as this thread amply demonstrates, there's no right answer!

There's a very wide range of what has worked for other people and no-one understands your family's dynamics other than you, so please don't feel guilty if you're not locking him in his bedroom/moving him in with his brother/paying for a psychologist.

My next steps would be (and apologies if you've discussed these already, I haven't RTFT):

• Take a day or two off work to catch up on sleep - to my mind this is completely acceptable of you're not in a fit state to work. It could even be unpaid parental leave if need be.
• Having a sit-down/this-is-serious discussion with your partner to ask what he's planning to do to combat this and reduce the burden on you. (I guarantee he's not on an internet thread right now, desperate for help for his wife and child.)
• Talking to your son's school to flag that this is an issue and asking their advice - they might be able to refer you to a local sleep scheme (a relative of mine used to run one of these and it was transformational for families - obviously funding is an issue so they're not common.)
• Thinking about setting jus one or two boundaries that are realistic to enforce - e.g. if you shout at me I will have to leave, but otherwise I will stay with you.

I really feel for you and I hope this improves soon x

It’s a tricky line because yes it is common and most are easily fixed and it doesn’t mean they have an actual anxiety disorder I agree.

But sometimes they do - and here the fact that he is showing odd controlling behaviour, a difference between what he wants during the day and at night, issues I think with school are all potential flags for it being something more that should be looked into and hopefully discounted as it just needing to be boundaries etc

the concern here is that if it is something more serious treating it as not being could do a lot of damage

that will take even longer to fix

If you know your seven year old has no sore ears, no worms, has been fed and has access to water, a sick bucket and an extra blanket, do not feel guilty to become stern about bedtime.
People let others sleep. You deserve your sleep - explain that to SD7.
Is he getting over tired? Try an earlier bedtime with no screens for two hours before hand. Does he need a red light?

You might get better sleep if you also go to bed earlier.

Plan to be going to bed soon after seven year old and insist that no one wakes another person.
Do not go into his room. Tell him to walk back just like he walked into your room.

By bigger bed, I meant a bigger bed for DS. I got mine a small double as I figured he would grow into it. I second the suggestion of a weighted blanket as well.

There's a few indicators here for neurodiversity - I know mumsnet hates this - but the need for perfection, possible anxiety around school, sleep issues. Just mentioning in case it is something you hadn't considered.

"Once he's woken and decided he needs you you're into survival mode and nothing you do then is really the solution."

I think this is a good point from @Doughtie

Survival mode is a real thing.

When our 3 were young, dh and I had years of periodically sleeping in different beds while I co-slept with one or other child for various reasons - breastfeeding, difficulty sleeping etc.

We were both on the same page, though and valued our sleep more than enforcing boundaries where sleep was concerned, as it felt counter-productive, so it worked for us, but I realise that it wouldn’t work for everyone, especially if you don’t sleep very well with dc in the same bed. Any chance of getting a King sized bed? Or any room for his bed or a mattress for him in your room? (Yes, I would do anything to ring-fence my sleep!)

They did all reach a point, when the last thing they wanted to do was bed or room share with Mum and Dad, and it was well before they left Primary school!

If he doesn't behave like this normally I would think it is being caused by overtiredness. Her shouting at him is probably a sign she is overtired. They really need to get some help to reset as this is just escalating every night.

Ive had a very similar experience with my 7 year old, she had finally started sleeping through n then a spider was in her bed n its ruined. I think its worse that you know they are capable of it so it's more a form or torture than ever.

After trying all the usual things and I mean all of them, including losing my actual sh** in the middle of night (you should be more scared of your mum than a spider....apparently i was being ridiculous) I've finally caved and put a blow up bed in my room and she's too quietly come in n go to that. Feels mean to put her on the floor but she doesn't stop moving and im not the best sleeper. Im also hoping its a short term thing but we're 3 months in n no prizes or incentives are beating the "I just want to be with you"