Feeling such rage at DS7, please help

[DespairInDarkness]

DS' sleep has been awful the last few weeks, waking me every couple of hours or so and it is at the point of feeling like absolute torture now.

Tonighe he woke me at 12 (barely half an hour after I'd fallen asleep), then again at 2 and kept us awake til 4. At that point I'd been on his bedroom floor for 2 hours so decided to go back to my bed. He came back through within 5 minutes and we had to start all over again.

At that point I'm ashamed
to admit I screamed/cried/begged at him to lay down and go to sleep. It took him 40 minutes, he's now asleep and i'm too scared to move, but aching so much lying on the floor. As I was dozing on and off earlier, I had visions of gettiing in the car and speeding up and crashing so I could sleep.

I just want him to not need me, to leave me alone at night, I want personal space, I want to sleep.

I don't need tips on how to help his sleep I don't think as we have tried it all at this point but I need advice on staying sane and not turning into an awful mother.

I've had 2 hours sleep and need to be up for work in an hour, the only thing stopping me from bursting into tears is the fear of waking him

OP I feel your pain. I strongly believe it’s anxiety related and probably something to do with school. He may not understand or be able to explain what’s “wrong”. For us, an adhd diagnosis and medication (yes I know it’s a stimulant but it did the trick for us), a dyslexia diagnosis and proper support in a different school, and a daily melatonin gummy now means we get a full night of sleep. And everyone is happier. I did 6 years of awful sleep like you’ve described and I wasn’t working. I have no idea how you’re managing. Hugs. But pls remember the bad sleep is likely a symptom of something else and have a deep dive into what else is going on even if it seems “fine”.

Anxiety doesn't make you scream for water or someone to face a different way. He's being punished for the choice behaviour. All actions have consequences whether we're fully in control or not.

The consequences will be for the behaviour which is clearly not acceptable- shouting in her face and waking her when she's sleeping next to him. That is beyond anxious, it's naughty. I'm sorry but it is.

Is it too dark in his room, can you leave the hall light on or other? There’s no way you can keep going like this.

I second the suggestion to see a child psychologist. He sounds very anxious and I think it's been going on for so long that you need expert support.

The OP admits that she screamed at him. So I wonder where he learned this behaviour?

I disagree that he’s ’naughty’. A 7 year old is going to be unreasonable sometimes. If you expect a 7 year old to behave like a mini adult then that is unrealistic.

Obviously not or he would be doing it

Yes seven, sorry.

It's still not that uncommon.

the association that if he's scared his mother will get up and soothe him yes, exactly - this is the healthy way to raise young kids. That when they're struggling family will be there to help.

Leaving a 7yo alone at night with anxious feelings - what are you imagining will be the magic learning from that?

The kids who get support when small grow up stronger.

The mother shouted at the child. What's the consequence for that?

I agree the behaviour needs to change but no locks on doors due to fire risk or just generally not a good idea

Putting a lock on a child’s bedroom door is a red flag for abuse, from the pov of social services.

Hi @DespairInDarkness my dd slept beautifully from about 3 weeks old til 8 months. She then never slept through more than the odd night til she was well over 6.

I did everything from co-sleeping to screaming like a banshee ao you are not alone in losing your ahit. There is a reason that sleep deprivation is a breech of the Geneva Convention, it is torture in its purest form.

My first advice is be kind to yourself. There is nothing more stressful than a child who can't sleep.

My dd's was primarily due to a medical condition that took me years to get her treatment for, she had a constant itch but it was only as she got older that she developed the vocabulary to explain.

If it is an anxiety related issue then maybe try some journalling with him so that he can try and get down on paper what he is feeling.

I would also look closely at your routine with him, is it calming or chaotic before bed especially with a younger brother about. For us, letting her set the pace helped, I also stopped bathing her before bed as it made her sleep worse. It probably took about 2 hours the first few weeks, but we would have a good chat about her day, anything that was worrying her, make a plan for how to deal with it the next day. Then we would watch her favourite tv show (as a toddler things like night garden) or read a book. Then we would settle in her room, she would find her favourite toy, blankets, basically building a nest, then we would pop her music or story on the alexa, and I would sit with her for a while and then we would try and extract ourselves. Some nights it worked others not so much.

We got a gro-bulb for her room that gave off a pale glow which helped, we also got her an alexa for her room, she has had stories on it for years. Hearing the voice (mostly Stephen fry and harry potter)helped her know she wasnt alone and started her to self settle.

It might be worth a try?

She is 12 now and when she is particularly stressed or worried (before exams or dancing shows) we still have sleep issues and she still sneaks into my bed when her stepndad is away but she is so much better.

It is bloody hard work, but for most kids it passes, but have you spoken to the GP to see if there is something medical? They can help with melatonin etc to help

What are you actually doing when he wakes you? What are you doing that he can't do himself?

He's seven, not a baby. He's plenty old enough to be told that if he wakes in the night, he's not allowed to wake you. He's old enough to understand that his parents' needs matter too. New house rules, starting tonight.

He's not a baby
He doesnt need constant soothing to the point his poor mother is demented through lack of sleep!
Did you read the bit where he is ordering her to lie a different way and ordering her to get different water- madness!
Firm but fair parenting
Calm bedtime, bath and story
Firm explanation that if he wakes he can read or listen to a story.

If he wakes calm and back to his bed, reassure,leave
Every time

Leaving a 7yo alone at night with anxious feelings - what are you imagining will be the magic learning from that?

Don't be rude

Children need reassurance and to know they are safe by parents being in charge.
The fact he can manipulate his mother is scary for a young child
He's seeking reassurance here
All the nonsense that's going on is embedding his anxiety .

He clearly has anxiety which is coming out at bedtime, for whatever reason. He’s not being ‘naughty’, because, as the OP says his intentions are not to do it when he’s up, during the day.

7 is often an age where certain children can burn out. It can be school related.

Sorry this is long but my daughter has started waking in the night and being unable to get back to sleep in her bed, for ease we take turns letting her sleep with us when she wakes, though we only have her so appreciate it’s easier as we don’t need to worry about a sibling feeling left out.
I saved the below after doing some Googling, we now stop all screens 30 minutes before bed, she does a jigsaw or colouring instead, put a colouring book and crayons in her room so if she wakes she can do that for a little while, we added a heavier blanket so the extra pressure on her feels comforting, no punishment for not staying in her room but a reward if she does (she wants tictacs) and last night she finally stayed in her room all night.
This what i saved:
Here is a common scenario. A child won’t sleep in her own bed. She’s afraid. Every night in order to fall asleep she needs a parent to be with her. Her parents tell her not to worry, but she stays worried. She asks, “What if burglars come?” Her parents suggest she think about something else. She says, “I tried that and I’m still scared.”
This problem is actually very common. A surprising number of children—7 years old, 9 years old, even 12 years old—cannot sleep alone in their own beds the whole night.
If this is happening in your home, perhaps you worry it is because your child has an emotional problem, some deep insecurity.
So why is this happening?
Sometimes the problem starts abruptly, like after seeing a scary movie. More often, however, the child has always been an anxious sleeper and has always needed a parent present to fall asleep ever since she was an infant or toddler. Such children have never developed the habit of independent sleeping. They have developed a strong association between sleep onset and the presence of a parent—the two always go together. It has become a habit. When a parent is absent, the child is anxious. When anxious, the child does anything and everything to get a parent to give in and provide the comfort needed to alleviate the anxiety. That means crying, demanding, badgering, and yelling. And when those don’t work, they try wailing, begging, banging on doors, and screaming bloody murder.
As children grow their imaginations grow, including their capacity to visualize potential threats. Kids think about things that can GET them. “What if” thinking develops. (What if a burglar gets into the house? What if kidnappers try to get me?) Their expanding imagination can result in increased awareness of their vulnerability. And sleep is when they surrender watchfulness. Sleep is when they feelmost vulnerable. If they feel anxious, they can’t sleep.
What are kids afraid of?

• Bad guys, intruders, kidnappers, burglars.
• Zombies, ghosts, witches.
• Storms, lightning, fire.
• Being the last one awake.

A child’s solution to this problem of vulnerability is to seek the protection of parents. When scared, all kids seek the comfort of their parents. Why doesn’t rational discussion work? It doesn’t work because your modern adult brain is speaking to a sophisticated but very ancient threat-detection module in your child’s brain that has been fine-tuned for the past 200,000 years. Danger nearby? Stick close to Mom and Dad. Just ignore those scary thoughts? Not a chance. For countless generations, kids did sleep with (or very near) parents. Kids with this module survived more often than those who wandered off alone. The must-not-sleep-alone alarm serves a good purpose. It protects kids in dangerous conditions. It doesn’t matter if the alarm is wrong most of the time (i.e., it gets kids to cling to parents when there is no real danger). It only matters if the alarm is right some of the time. If it is, nature keeps it. It comes down to this. Given a choice, a scared child will always choose the comfort of a warm parent rather than rely on his or her own resources for comfort. Does this reflect a deeper problem? Does anxiety at bedtime indicate some deep-seated insecurity? Does the fear mean there is some deeper psychological problem? Sometimes bedtime fears can be part of a bigger problem with anxiety that might need professional attention, but often, the answer is no. Every child is afraid to sleep alone sometimes. Many kids who develop chronic anxious sleep patterns do so because a habit starts and gets perpetuated, but the problem is limited to bedtime. In the rest of their lives, they are confident, no more anxious than typical children. For other children, bedtime anxiety is just one part of broader challenges with anxiety or difficulty self-regulating emotional reactions. The child might have separation anxiety, a tendency to worry a lot, fears about illness, a lot of temper outbursts, or difficulty managing transitions. Or the child might have ADHD or a learning disability. But that does NOT mean that the sleep problem cannot get better until all those other problems improve. Fixing the sleep problem can give everyone the energy and confidence to work on the other problems. Your job is to provide the right kind and the right amount of reassurance. By developing his capacity to soothe himself, your child masters his fears. This mastery and independence will generalize to other aspects of your child’s life, adding to his sense of confidence and strength in whatever he undertakes. Kids who can comfort themselves are more self-reliant, more capable, and more self-confident. What is a good bedtime routine? The bedtime ritual can be comforting for everyone. The routine should be a relaxing ending to a full day, lasting about 20 to 30 minutes. Regularity is reassuring to children, so try to make a ritual of the same sequence of activities. Be sure to allow enough time so no one has to feel rushed and tense. Notice what your child does to soothe herself. Does she have a favorite place for a favorite stuffed animal? A special method of plumping her pillow? A favorite way of saying goodnight? Foster these rituals and enjoy them with her. Notice your tone of voice. Are you speaking in warm, soothing tones to create a relaxed, positive mood? You want your child to feel that her bed is the coziest place in the world. Help your child develop positive associations to bed and sleep. Spend time with your child in their bedroom in enjoyable activities. Talk about how nice the bed is, how warm and perfect the blankets are, how everything in your child’s room has just the right place, how happy her stuffed animals are. You are creating and reinforcing positive associations to bedtime so she can feel cozy and secure.

1. Choose a bedtime and stick to it.
2. Before bed, avoid TV, video games, and any stressful discussions.
3. Make sure all needs are anticipated so your child won’t need to get up again. Be sure your child has a glass of water by the bedside, has gone to the bathroom, has a favorite stuffed animal.
4. Have some time for closeness with your child:

• Talk about something pleasant that occurred today
• Talk about the plans for tomorrow, especially positive things

1. Hugs, kisses, and good night.

Follow these same steps every night. Activities before bed should be relaxing, not stimulating. Avoid TV right before bed; stopping is frustrating for some kids. Avoid arguments, angry conflicts, criticism, complaints, and discussion of problems. Bedtime is for relaxing!

• You avoid engaging the child in discussion of the rules, the fears, the unfairness of your treatment of the child, or anything else controversial. This is not a time for problem-solving or debate. This is a time for sleep.
• You did not let yourself get angry. You do not raise your voice.

Should I reward my child for sleeping alone? Rewards for compliance will help motivate your child, get your child’s attention, and reinforce effort. However, the real rewards are security, independence, and a sense of competence. But you should consider rewards to recognize effort and encourage the child. Certainly, you should reward your child with praise. “I am so proud of you. I see you are really trying. It makes me feel so good to see you so confident!” Other rewards can include food, little prizes, and activities with parents. Best to think of the reward as a fun way to celebrate your child’s accomplishment. It is definitely not payment. Rewards that are too big will feel like bribes. Best to keep rewards small. Here are some ideas:

• Stickers or stars on the calendar for each successful night
• After 7 successful nights, celebrate success in some way–go out for ice cream, a pizza, or have a “games night” with Mom and Dad.* *

What about punishments? Forget about it. Punishments don’t work very well for this problem. One reason is that when kids are in the grip of fear, they are willing to pay almost any price to get relief.Go ahead, spank me. Take away my iPad. Don’t make threats. Delay Bedtime for a Few Nights. This will help your child to fall asleep faster. Don’t let your child sleep later in the morning. Tips on how to calm a scaredy-cat. Trying to calm a scared child can make parents feel pretty helpless and frustrated. Remember, your attitude, manner, and tone of voice are what is most important. Stay relaxed, patient, and confident. Here are some suggestions.

• Have a talk about the reality of potential threats. (But you’ve probably already done this!) Talk about burglar alarms, the creaky noises that houses normally make at night, the zombies that exist only in movies. But don’t expect this talk to make a lot of difference. The real intruder is worry!
• Sympathize. I know it’s scary, honey. I’m sorry. I wish you could feel better. Accept your child’s feelings as they are. Keep your tone warm and soothing. Give a hug and a kiss. Be brief. If you feel pulled into a lot of talk about the fear, pull out. Avoid engaging in debate, argument, or lengthy discussion. Show by your actions that you feel comfortably settled with such issues. Keep it short.
• Reinforce positive associations to your child’s room and bed. You have got such a great room. I love your room! Look at this perfect spot for your teddy bear! Aren’t these blankets deliciously soft? You are so lucky.
• Redirect attention to something else. Don’ttell her to think about something else–get her to think about something else. Prattle on about the details of your world–your dog’s face when he feels guilty, your plans for planting petunias, the pros and cons of buying a new set of tires next Saturday. You are redirecting her attention subtly, naturally. You don’t announce it: “I’m now going to distract you so you can quit thinking those scary thoughts and I can go to bed.” You simply shift the topic to something ordinary. If your child goes back to talking about fears, don’t get frustrated or impatient, just sympathize again. Then resume redirecting. Try getting her to help you with some small decision. If she can help you, then she can feel useful and competent. I’m trying to decide which tablecloth to use when Grandma comes to dinner. The one with red flowers is pretty, but the blue one looks good with our china. What do you think?
• Create a positive mood by talking about things you like and things that make you feel good. Then talk about things the child likes. Be careful not to over-do it, or else the child may feel manipulated. Be gentle. If this increases her protests, stick to neutral topics.
• Encourage acceptance of the problem. Your child might feel that he must sleep and may just get more tense and frustrated the longer sleep eludes him. When you give your child permission to remain quietly wakeful, you end the battle, thus helping him relax. It’s okay if you don’t sleep right now, honey. It’s restful to just lie quietly in your bed. You can let your mind drift and think about anything you want.
• Meditation and relaxation exercises. Try watching our on Youtube. It’s very calming.

I keep reading this about co sleeping in other countries but in my experience and from travelling and speaking with my friends from other countries it’s completely different.

I lived in North Africa for a short period and they had mattresses on the floor of the living area where family slept in the same room during the day for naps or for short periods of time but the parents had a proper bedroom where they slept through the night undisturbed.

My DP is from the Middle East and growing up he had a similar situation, he said he loved having naps with his mum but at night she slept in the bedroom with his dad and he was told not to disturb them.
These were Muslim countries where sleeping together in the same bed after marriage was to be respected and the kids weren’t allowed in the bedroom at all.

My best friend has Indian heritage and said when she had children her parents said they would co sleep when the children were babies or very young. They said they stopped it as their children got older because again the marital bed was sacred.

I have a Vietnamese friend who said any co sleeping was due to poverty and when her family moved to the uk the first thing her mum advised her on was to encourage independent sleeping!
Again this was something that was encouraged with babies but she said as she got older her parents wanted independent space to sleep.

I know this is mostly anecdotal but I really don’t think co sleeping is as common in other countries as people on mumsnet suggest. If it is then it’s due to lack of space not choice from my experience.

There was a thread on here the other day about how difficult it is for a couple to sleep in a double bed, double beds are the most common in the uk.

If two adults are struggling for space in a double bed then adding kids would make it even less comfortable. Not to mention that kids are squirmy and hot and in the OP’s case her son would wake her up regardless.

I’m not criticising anyone who chooses to co sleep and it’s great if it works for them.
I just find it irritating when people who choose not to do it get this narrative that it’s only in the uk where families sleep separately.

Sleep is so important and you can’t literally go mad without it. I was once close to being admitted to a psychiatric unit (many years ago and it wouldn’t happen now) because I’d gone days without sleep and had a full breakdown. I’m prescribed medication (quetiapine) to sleep now to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

I have always had sleep issues and used to wake my parents because I was bored and lonely being awake at night. I’d say I was scared because I knew that would gain a sympathetic reaction rather than just saying I couldn’t sleep.

The reason I stopped waking my parents was being told off when I woke them and they said they couldn’t do nice things on weekends and stopped a lot of fun activities because they said they were too tired. I was also completely ignored and just taken back to bed multiple times when I woke them so I gave up!

The only time I was genuinely scared was when I was 12 and we moved from a town to a rural area and I was scared of burglars so I gave my parents a genuine reason for my anxiety.
The solution on that occasion was I shared a room with my 10 year old sister at night for company and this helped me to sleep. As soon as I realised my parents wouldn’t engage after waking I gave up disturbing them.

I have ADHD and always struggled with sleep, I had books by my bed to read at night for when I was bored. Maybe OP could try audiobooks or even use an iPad with restrictions and a time limit?

Desperate times call for desperate measures and I’d be seriously looking at melatonin or whatever helps in order to get peace to sleep.
The human body can cope with a lot but sleep is something you don’t mess around with as lack of it has a huge impact.

Where did I say he was naughty?

It's all clearly anxiety lead
It makes the anxiety worse if he doesnt get firm boundaries

Sorry, no advice, mine is only 9 months and an atrocious sleeper. I was just irritated to read that people are telling you you need to be 'firmer'. Ignore all the so-and-sos who have no idea. As if it never occurred to you to just be 'firmer' 🙄. Like when my mum told me I just needed to 'put her down and she'll go to sleep' as if I'd never tried putting her down???

Same. I 3rd child co slept with us and we got used to it. Didn't even bother buying a cot for our 4th although he did have a bassinett for the early months. Bought a king size bed. They moved out in their own time, in fact I can't even remember them doing it or what age.

Have you got space for a small camp bed at the foot of your bed? That’s what we do. The rule is, you come in, no talking and get in the camp bed. It works for me as like you, I can’t sleep when they’re in the bed. I also struggle to get back to sleep once I’m out of my own bed, so this is our way!

I gave up trying anything else in the end & now just sleep on his pull out bed when he calls for me in the night. I generally go straight back to sleep & he doesn't wake again as he knows I'm there. I feel so much better as I'm getting significantly more sleep this way.

Nothing has worked for us - he just doesnt like sleeping on his own & gets scared when he wakes up during the night.

He's also 7 & has no ND.

Not sure if I've already mentioned this but when you see him, or feel that little tap on the shoulder, lift the covers, let him snuggle in and everyone goes back to sleep. It's not hard! If you have 2 then buy a bigger bed or one of you sleep in a queen size with one DC and the other parent with the other DC. Why do people make their lives so difficult?
Nobody is going to know who co-slept with their parents until 8 9 or 10. It's not an issue.

Ignore all the so-and-sos who have no idea.

Tbf a 9 month old and a 7 year old are completely different
Many of us have a very good idea through experience and what the Op is doing now is not working, she is angry with her child, getting virtually no sleep and her health is at risk, he is ordering her around in the night if she sleeps in his room !

Go to any good sleep consultant and they will charge you a fortune and give the same advice.

When my husband works early shift, he sleeps in my son's single bed. Me and my son share our king bed. Its lovely. Switch up the bed situation!