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Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

1000 replies

MagicFox · 17/10/2025 22:11

Well, it’s thread 59.

Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

D. Please keep on topic

OP posts:
Thread gallery
441
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 06/12/2025 12:29

i think it's well known now sorry !

Apparently it still works even if you know about it, which indicates just how strong the inclination is to focus on what you expect to see.

I think that it's not entirely bad. if you were unable to filter things out, it would be very hard to concentrate. Pros and cons.

blueshoes · 06/12/2025 13:57

https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-5-2025/

Key Takeaways

  1. US and Ukrainian officials continued peace talks to end the war in Ukraine in Miami, Florida on December 4 and 5.
  2. Available open-source information indicates that Russian forces have not encircled Ukrainian forces in Myrnohrad as of December 5 as Russian forces continue efforts to complete the encirclement of the Pokrovsk-Myrnohrad pocket.
  3. Russian forces are attempting to completely deny Ukrainian tactical- and operational-level logistics to the Pokrovsk direction using drones to achieve effects of battlefield air interdiction (BAI).
  4. Ukrainian forces continue to strike Russian oil and defense industrial base (DIB) infrastructure.
  5. Five unidentified drones flew over a major French nuclear submarine base on the evening of December 4 amid increasing reports of drones flying over European military infrastructure.
  6. Russian forces committed a war crime in the Siversk direction.
  7. Ukrainian forces recently advanced near Novopavlivka. Russian forces recently advanced near Borova and Pokrovsk.
PerkingFaintly · 06/12/2025 14:20

I suspect what might be going is is some genuine Russian/Russian sponsored ops,.some amateurs messing around and a lot of false sightings due in part to confirmation bias.

Yes, in addition to all the confirmation bias false sightings, I'd expect this to be prime "Russian sponsored" activity. It's highly disruptive and would be VERY easy to organise cheaply and at a distance.

They wouldn't even have to go to the trouble of declaring themselves, promising to pay someone, and getting explosives to the patsy. They could just wind someone up online via gaming or whatever: "Wouldn't it be funny to fly your drone over the airport/military site? That's stick it to the man! Hur hur!"

[edited for SPAG]

PerkingFaintly · 06/12/2025 14:22

See also this fake pic of a railway bridge "collapse".

It had to be investigated, and trains had to be stopped in the meanwhile.

Comparatively big bang for the buck.

Trains cancelled over fake bridge collapse image
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwygqqll9k2o

A side-by-side photo showing a damaged bridge on the right. A section of the barriers that run along the top of the bridge appears to have collapsed and a pile of rubble can be seen underneath. A large hole can be seen in front of the bridge. The left...

Trains cancelled over fake bridge collapse image

Rail services were cancelled after a 'hoax' picture of a damaged bridge appeared on social media

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwygqqll9k2o

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/12/2025 15:40

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 06/12/2025 12:29

i think it's well known now sorry !

Apparently it still works even if you know about it, which indicates just how strong the inclination is to focus on what you expect to see.

I think that it's not entirely bad. if you were unable to filter things out, it would be very hard to concentrate. Pros and cons.

I would describe that as "people ignore the irrelevant gorilla because it isn't wearing white", myself.

blueshoes · 07/12/2025 02:56

https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-6-2025/

Key Takeaways

  1. Russian forces launched 704 total missiles and drones against Ukraine overnight on December 5 to 6, heavily targeting railway and energy infrastructure across the country.
  2. The US and Ukrainian negotiating delegations agreed that any progress toward peace talks to end the war in Ukraine is dependent on Russia’s readiness to demonstrate a good faith commitment to long term peace.
  3. Ukrainian forces continue to hold positions within Pokrovsk and Myrnohrad while Russian forces are complicating Ukrainian logistics in the area.
  4. A February 2025 Russian drone strike on the Chornobyl Nuclear Power Plant (NPP) rendered the protective structure of the NPP unable to fulfill its primary safety functions.
  5. The Kremlin appears to be increasingly leaning on India to alleviate domestic labor shortages and is setting conditions for India to support drone production for Russia’s war effort.
  6. India’s increased partnerships with Russia come against the backdrop of Russia’s growing reliance on North Korea and the People’s Republic of China (PRC) to support the war in Ukraine.
  7. Ukrainian forces recently advanced in the Kostyantynivka-Druzhkivka tactical area and near Novopavlivka and Oleksandrivka. Russian forces recently marginally advanced in the Kostyantynivka-Druzhkivka tactical area.
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/12/2025 10:22

Kyiv Independent Telegram Highlights

⚡️Zelensky reports 'long and substantive call (kyivindependent.com/zelensky-reports-long-and-substantive-call-with-witkoff-kushner/)' with Witkoff, Kushner.
"Ukraine is determined to keep working in good faith with the American side to genuinely achieve peace. We agreed on the next steps and formats for talks with the United States," Zelensky wrote on Dec. 6.

⚡️Ukraine will not accept any peace deal requiring territorial concessions (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-will-not-accept-any-peace-deal-requiring-territorial-concessions-syrskyi-tells-uk-broadcaster/), Syrskyi tells UK broadcaster.
“There are no pauses, no delays in (Russia's) operations. They keep pushing their troops forward to seize as much of our territory as possible under the cover of negotiations," Syrskyi said.

Update: The strike on Kremenchuk was part of a larger-scale attack on Ukrainian energy infrastructure, with Chernihiv and Kyiv Oblast also targeted. (https://kyivindependent.com/explosions-reported-in-kremenchuk-as-russia-launches-barrage-of-missiles-drones-towards-central-ukraine/)

⚡️Update: Ukraine's military releases video (kyivindependent.com/ukrainian-drones-reportedly-strikes-russias-ryazan-oil-refinery/) of Ukrainian drone strikes on shell production plant, oil refinery.
Ukraine's military released a video of the Dec. 6 Ukrainian drone strikes on the Russian-occupied Alchevsk Metallurgical Plant and Russia's Ryazan Oil Refinery.

⚡️Vilnius airport halts flights (kyivindependent.com/vilnius-airport-halts-flights-for-third-time-this-week-after-balloon-sightings/) for 3rd time this week after balloon sightings.
Operations at Vilnius International Airport were briefly suspended on Dec. 6 after unidentified objects — believed to be Belarusian balloons — were detected in the surrounding airspace, the airport said.

The incident marks the third such disruption in Lithuania this week, with Vilnius facing repeated flight interruptions over the past months.

⚡️ 'Happy Ukrainian Armed Forces Day (kyivindependent.com/happy-ukrainian-armed-forces-day-hackers-deface-website-of-russian-company-delivering-military-goods/)' — hackers deface website of Russian company delivering military goods, HUR source claims.
The cyberattack took down over 700 computers and servers and deleted accounts of more than 1,000 Eltrans+ users, HUR claimed.

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦
‪@ragnarbjartur.bsky.social‬
⚡️ WAR IN UKRAINE & RUSSIA — DEC 7, 2025
■ Engagements and casualties below the 7-day average
■ Equipment losses well above average; 8th-highest drone losses to date
■ 246 overnight attacks, including five missiles; interception rate could be better, 14 locations hit
■ 🇷🇺 MLRS strikes down from the previous day; the 30-day 🇷🇺/🇺🇦 strike ratio edges slightly lower

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦 (@ragnarbjartur.bsky.social)

My day job involves making sense of data. In my spare time, I apply these skills to Ukraine's fight for freedom.

https://bsky.app/profile/ragnarbjartur.bsky.social

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/12/2025 10:34

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

‼️ The Zaporizhzhia NPP temporarily lost all external power due to Russian shelling.
According to the IAEA, the 330 kV line was reconnected about half an hour after the attack, but the main 750 kV line remains disconnected.
This is the 11th such incident since the start of the full-scale war.

The new protective confinement at the Chornobyl nuclear power plant, designed to contain radioactive emissions from the 1986-damaged reactor, no longer fulfills its key functions due to a Russian drone strike, the IAEA reported.
Last week, the agency’s experts completed a detailed inspection of the New Safe Confinement (NSC), which was hit by a Russian drone in February.

💡 Moldova requests Romania’s help after Russian attacks on Ukraine’s power grid
Following strikes on Ukraine’s power grid, a key power unit in the region has been shut down, and interconnector lines are running at full capacity.
Moldelectrica has requested emergency support from Romania as a precaution for the coming hours. The move aims to ensure the safe operation of the power system and prevent potential overloads, the Moldovan grid reported.

Russia targeted the energy infrastructure of the Kremenchuk district overnight, causing significant damage. In Kremenchuk and Horishni Plavni, the electricity supply remains unstable, affecting heat and water services, said the head of the Poltava Regional Military Administration, Volodymyr Kohut.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine discussed key measures to end the bloodshed and prevent a third Russian invasion, as well as the risk of Russia failing to keep its promises, following a phone call with Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, alongside Andriy Gnatov and Rustem Umerov.
“Thank you for a very substantive, constructive conversation.
Ukraine is determined to work honestly with the American side to truly bring peace.
We agreed on the next steps and formats for discussions with the US. Thanks to President Trump for such an intensive approach to the negotiations.
I am waiting for Rustem Umerov and General Gnatov with a detailed report.
We cannot cover everything by phone, so detailed work with the teams on ideas and proposals is needed.
Our approach is that everything must be actionable — every important measure for peace, security, and reconstruction.”

😱 Around 100 shells struck the Kherson Thermal Power Plant, the Regional Military Administration reported.
The deputy head of the Kherson Regional Military Administration said restoring the plant will be very difficult.
Local authorities are exploring decentralized ways to provide heat. Currently, 40,000 residents remain without heat and electricity.
The plant had already suspended operations the day before yesterday following another Russian attack.

In Dnipro, warehouses storing medicines and tires caught fire following a rocket attack. The State Emergency Service used aviation to help extinguish the blaze.

Most Americans want Ukraine to defeat Russia in the war, according to a poll by the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and Institute (RRPFI).
The survey shows that 62% of Americans want Ukraine to win the war started by Russia. Along party lines, this view is shared by 57% of Republicans and 72% of Democrats.
At the same time, 70% of respondents do not trust Russia to honor any peace agreement with Ukraine — including 61% of Republicans and 77% of Democrats.
When asked what approach the US should support to end the war, 45% favor Ukraine defending its full territorial sovereignty — that is, liberating all territories occupied by Russia. This is also the leading view within both parties, held by 34% of Republicans and 58% of Democrats.
However, 23% believe Ukraine should cede some territory in exchange for a long-term ceasefire backed by Western security guarantees. This view is supported by 31% of Republicans and 16% of Democrats.
Another 22% support a temporary ceasefire along the current front lines, without recognizing Russia’s control over the annexed territories. This is backed by 27% of Republicans and 18% of Democrats.
The survey was conducted from October 23 to November 3, 2025, by the bipartisan research groups Beacon Research and Shaw & Company Research. The total sample size was 2,507 people, with a margin of error of ±1.96% for the full sample. Some questions were asked to only half of respondents, with a margin of error of ±2.77%. Subgroup margins of error are higher.

Vovchansk, Kharkiv region.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/12/2025 10:40

Kyiv Post Telegram Highlights

US promises pre-Christmas arms boost for Ukraine, (www.kyivpost.com/post/65690) pushes for Europe-led NATO by 2027.
Senior US defense officials warned European partners that while military aid to Kyiv is set to rise, Washington will no longer anchor NATO’s conventional defenses past 2027.

Russia’s “shadow fleet” tanker Kairos, which was struck by Ukrainian naval drones on November 28, has run aground off the coast of Bulgaria, Reuters reports.
At first, the vessel failed to respond to calls, after which authorities learned that 10 people were on board — who later requested evacuation.
A rescue attempt was halted due to severe weather, but the crew managed to drop anchor one nautical mile from Ahtopol. The tanker remains under constant monitoring amid strong winds.
Bulgarian officials said a specialized border-police team is ready to approach the vessel, and two aircraft may join the operation as soon as weather conditions allow.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/12/2025 10:42

Live: Ukraine Telegram Highlights

Ukrainian military forces liberated the village of Tykhe in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.
On November 21, Russians published a video of soldiers holding the Russian flag on the Oleksandrivka direction and claiming the occupation of Tykhe and Vidradne in the Pokrovske community.
Fighters of the 67th Separate Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reported that they cleared Tykhe of Russians on December 5. As of December 6, the village is under the control of Ukrainian military forces.

🇸🇪Sweden is detecting Russian submarines in the Baltic Sea almost every week.
According to Captain Mark Petrovich, head of operations for the Swedish Navy, Moscow is “constantly increasing” its presence in the region, and the number of Russian submarines has grown in recent years.
He noted that after any potential ceasefire or pause in the war in Ukraine, Russia is likely to strengthen its forces in the Baltic even further.

According to the American publication Axios, the phone conversation between Zelensky and US representatives Witkoff and Kushner on Saturday lasted two hours, and the discussion of the territorial issue was "complex."

🇨🇿Fraudsters were exposed in the Czech Republic for appropriating funds designated for over 70 Ukrainian refugee women.
According to the investigation, since late 2022, two men have been offering Ukrainian women assistance in processing humanitarian payments, obtaining their bank details, and submitting support applications on their behalf.
The suspects filed over 750 applications containing false information. Law enforcement officials say that had some rejected applications been approved, the losses would have been twice as large.
The total losses amount to over $130,000. Two foreign nationals and their female partners have been charged with fraud and the legalization of illegal income. They are residents of the east of Central Europe who currently reside in the Czech Republic.
▪️In September 2025, the number of Ukrainians who received temporary protection in EU countries reached its highest point in the last two years. The Czech Republic ranks third in the number of refugees after Poland and Germany.

The GUR and the Resistance Movement eliminated two servicemen who committed crimes during the occupation of Bucha.
Ukrainian intelligence officers blew up a car belonging to servicemen of the 76th Guards Air Assault Division of the Russian Armed Forces in the temporarily occupied part of Kherson Oblast.
The unit is known for the brutal crimes it committed in Bucha, Kyiv Oblast, in 2022.
According to the investigation, in March 2022, they shot civilians on the streets of Bucha and persecuted patriotic residents.

blueshoes · 08/12/2025 03:05

https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-7-2025/

Key Takeaways

  1. The Kremlin positively reacted to the recently released US National Security Strategy (NSS).
  2. Russian forces are conducting a battlefield air interdiction (BAI) campaign against Ukrainian ground lines of communications (GLOCs) in northern Kharkiv Oblast, likely to disrupt Ukrainian logistics to eventually facilitate battlefield gains.
  3. Balloons from Belarusian airspace continue incursions into NATO airspace in Lithuania.
  4. Ukrainian forces recently advanced in the Kostyantynivka-Druzhkivka tactical area. Russian forces recently advanced near Hulyaipole.
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 08/12/2025 10:46

Live:Ukraine

🇺🇸US Special Envoy Keith Kellogg believes that only "10 meters" remain until the end of the war in Ukraine. And they are the hardest.

According to him, two issues remain problematic in discussing the end of the Russian-Ukrainian war:

🔹The first is the territorial issue, particularly control over Donetsk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts;

🔹 The second is control over the currently occupied Zaporizhzhia NPP (ZNPP).

"If we solve these two problems, I think the rest will fall into place," the Trump special envoy believes.

At the same time, Kellogg emphasized that resolving Russia's war against Ukraine, which is "unprecedented in scale," is proving difficult.

🔸 Consequences of Russian shelling for today. (Sunday) What is known as of 4:00 PM:

🔴 Kharkiv Oblast. Russians shelled Kupiansk and Chuhuiv districts. Two civilians were killed, and seven more were injured. In Vovchansk community, one man died and seven people were injured due to shelling.

🔴 Zaporizhzhia. Russians attacked the village of Bilenke with drones: two people were wounded. In the city of Orikhiv, the occupiers destroyed a residential building—a 71-year-old woman was trapped under the rubble. Rescuers have already freed her.

🔴 Kherson. Due to the morning attack, a 43-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman sustained concussions and closed head injuries.

🔴 Kostiantynivka, Donetsk Oblast. One civilian was wounded due to an FPV drone attack. In Semenivka, Chernihiv Oblast, an FPV drone hit a residential building, injuring its 79-year-old owner.

🔴 Also, due to shelling in Novhorod-Siverskyi, Chernihiv Oblast, yesterday evening, one person was killed and three were wounded. The police department, a medical complex, and several residential buildings were damaged.

🔸 The eldest son of US President Trump, Donald Trump Jr., does not rule out that his father might distance himself from Russia's war against Ukraine if his attempts to achieve peace are unsuccessful.

"I think he could do that. But what is a positive trait in my father, and a unique one too — you never know what he's going to do. He's unpredictable."

🇮🇹Italy will transfer equipment to Ukraine to support the energy infrastructure in the coming days.

Volodymyr Zelensky announced this following a conversation with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.

🔸 The Kremlin received the provisions of the new US National Security Strategy, unveiled this week, with optimism.

Commenting on the presented strategy, Peskov noted that it contains "phrasing against confrontation, toward dialogue and the building of good relations."

"This is good, on the one hand. But on the other hand, we know that sometimes everything is written very nicely and conceptually, but what they call the deep state does things differently. So we need to monitor very carefully how this concept is implemented," the Kremlin spokesman added.

🇫🇷 France supports a reparations loan for Ukraine but not one sourced from the assets of French commercial banks.

€18 billion in Russian assets are frozen in French private banks. This is the second-largest amount of Russian assets after the international depositary Euroclear (€185 billion), which is located in Belgium.

Although the names of these banks are not disclosed, three informed sources told the FT that the overwhelming majority of Russian assets are held in the country's largest bank, BNP Paribas.

French officials assert that commercial banks are subject to different obligations. Therefore, they support allocating the reparations loan only from Euroclear.

🔹 The European Commission officially presented the idea of a reparations loan funded by frozen Russian assets on December 6th. Details were not disclosed, but Politico wrote that the loan amount would be €165 billion: €140 billion from Euroclear and €25 billion from private banks across the European Union.

❗️The destroyed railway station in Fastiv, Kyiv oblast will not be restored

It will be dismantled and a new one will be built, according to the Mayor.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 08/12/2025 10:58

United 24 Media:

🇮🇳 Russia is considering expanding cooperation with India for joint drone production — ISW

Rostec head Sergei Chemezov said Moscow is negotiating with India on localizing drone production, including the Lancet. A day earlier, Vladimir Putin told India Today that Russia is transferring military technologies to India and launching joint defense projects.

Meanwhile, the Kremlin’s proxy in the occupied Kherson region, Volodymyr Saldo, announced his readiness to bring in Indian workers for the local agricultural sector and for the region’s “economic integration.”

🇨🇿 Czech President Petr Pavel did not rule out that, in the future, Europe may respond more harshly to Russian provocations — including the possibility of shooting down a Russian drone or aircraft.

He said NATO has solid grounds to react far more firmly than it has so far.

Pavel added that these airspace violations are deliberate and well-planned.

🔹 In Russia, Robert ‘Magyar’ Brovdi was accused of “terrorism” and placed on the international wanted list.

The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation has charged in absentia the commander of the Unmanned Systems Forces with the “murder” of Russian propagandist Anna Prokofieva.

🔸 The Russians’ destruction of the Pechenihy Dam in the Kharkiv region will not affect the Ukrainian military but may complicate life for civilians.

According to the 16th Army Corps of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, this is not the first enemy attack on the dam. Backup routes have been developed in the event of its destruction. These routes have been used before and fully support necessary logistics.

Ukrainian units have accumulated sufficient material and technical supplies, so the temporary restriction of movement across the dam will not critically impact combat operations.

The Defense Forces are also prepared to restore the crossing as quickly as possible — special engineering equipment and trained personnel are available for this.

At the same time, the Pechenihy Dam is a critically important facility that supplies water to dozens of settlements in the Kharkiv region.

“Attempts to destroy the dam have no military justification.
The attack by Russian troops on the Pechenihy Dam is a gross violation of international humanitarian law and qualifies as a war crime.”

🔹 A powerful new mural has appeared in Lviv, portraying the brutal reality of Russia’s drone attacks on Ukrainian cities. The mural has reportedly been created by Ukrainian artist Andrii Yermolenko. (Photo)

💪 On the effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense: the interception rate of Russian Shahed drones has stabilized at 80%, OSINT researcher Cyrus reports.

He notes that this rate has fluctuated throughout the war, influenced by changes in Shahed deployment tactics and ongoing drone modifications.

🤬 Militants of Russia’s “Africa Corps” are committing mass atrocities in Mali, AP reports.

Refugees say the “Africa Corps,” which replaced Wagner, uses the same brutal tactics as the former PMC. One refugee described it as a “scorched earth policy.”

“The soldiers don’t talk to anyone. They shoot everyone they see. No questions, no warning. People don’t even know why they’re being killed,” a village elder said.

Refugees claim there is “no difference between Wagner and the Africa Corps.” Some even found the bodies of relatives with organs missing, such as the liver and kidneys — abuses previously linked to Wagner fighters.

Legal experts noted that because the militants have been transferred under the direct control of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the Russian government is now directly responsible for their actions.

🔸 Ukraine’s security is a key part of Europe’s overall security, and thanks to international cooperation, including within the Coalition of the Willing, support for Ukraine will remain firm, according to a joint statement by UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer and Dutch Prime Minister Dick Schoof during a phone call, the British government reports.

They discussed the recent intensive Russian strikes on Kyiv and agreed that international support for Ukraine’s defense must stay consistent and resolute.

Starmer also informed Schoof about tomorrow’s meeting at Downing Street with French President Emmanuel Macron, German Chancellor Friedrich Merz and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The leaders will review the progress of peace talks and outline next steps.

🔹 Russians have started installing rear-view cameras on Shahed UAVs to help them evade Ukrainian interceptor drones.

🔸 Italy stands in solidarity with Ukraine amid another wave of indiscriminate Russian attacks on civilian infrastructure and will send emergency supplies to support Ukraine’s energy system and population. Generators provided by Italian companies will be delivered in the coming weeks, Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni said after a phone call with President Volodymyr Zelensky, ahead of his working visits to London, Brussels and Rome to strengthen contacts with key European leaders in the peace process for Ukraine.

“Italy supports the negotiation process and the efforts of the United States to find a path to a just and lasting peace.

Ukraine’s willingness to participate in the talks in good faith is a crucial prerequisite for a peaceful settlement. We hope that Russia will demonstrate the same readiness.”

🔹 Peskov Praises New US National Security Strategy

A spokesman for the Russian dictator said it was “good” that the document included “wordings against confrontation and in favor of dialogue and establishing good relations.”

On December 5, the White House published a new national security strategy stating that the US seeks to restore “strategic stability” with Russia, end the war in Ukraine, and avoid further NATO expansion.

🔸 Hungary and Slovakia plan to challenge the EU’s proposal to fully phase out Russian gas and oil in court.

Hungarian Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó said both countries see the planned ban as a threat to their energy security and prices.

The EU intends to end all imports of Russian energy by 2027.

🔹 Moscow repeats the same script: reject conditions, manipulate the process, and then accuse Ukraine of “not wanting dialogue.” Russia doesn’t want peace, it wants time to continue its war.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 08/12/2025 11:11

Kyiv Independent:

⚡️Locals report explosions near Engels airfield, oil depot in Russia's Saratov Oblast amid overnight drone attacks

Unidentified drones reportedly struck Russia’s Rostov and Saratov oblasts overnight on Dec. 7, with Ukrainian Telegram channel Exilenova Plus claiming explosions near an airfield and oil depot in the city of Engels in Saratov Oblast. Local and military authorities later said air defenses shot down multiple drones over the regions.

⚡️Trump envoy Keith Kellogg says a Ukraine peace deal is in its ‘final stretch,’ with control over Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant as key sticking points

U.S. President Donald Trump's special representative for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, said a peace agreement to end Russia's war against Ukraine appears to be nearing completion, comparing the negotiations to the final stretch of a battlefield advance, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's Ukrainian service reported on Dec. 7.

🔹 Europe splits on frozen Russian assets as peace talk stall
The Kyiv Independent’s Anna Belokur reports on another failed round of U.S.-Russia diplomacy over a controversial peace plan, as Moscow presses ahead on the battlefield and advances in and near Pokrovsk. The episode also includes a report from Ukraine’s border with Belarus, through which Ukrainians continue to flee Russian-occupied territories, and examines Belgium’s resistance to seizing frozen Russian assets for Ukraine’s defense.

⚡️Ukraine reports frontline gain in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast as Russia advances in Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts

Amid an ongoing Russian offensive, Ukraine has liberated a village in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, as Russian forces made gains in Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts, the Ukrainian open-source mapping project DeepState and Ukraine's military reported.

⚡️Czech president says Europe may need to shoot down Russian aircraft, drones violating NATO airspace

European countries may have to start shooting down Russian aircraft and drones that violate NATO airspace if Moscow keeps testing the alliance's resolve, Czech President Petr Pavel said in an interview with the Sunday Times of London published Dec. 7.

⚡️Russia, China hold joint anti-missile drills on Russian territory.

China says recent joint anti-missile drills with Russia on Russian territory were routine and not aimed at any third party.

🔸 Looking for the 10 best Ukraine-related books of 2025? We’ve got you

The Kyiv Independent has selected 10 of the best books published in 2025 related to Ukraine. Curious readers should use this list as a guide on the path to discovering even more books from this and previous years, with the anticipation of what is to come in 2026 as well.

⚡️Ukraine braces for 'critical damage' after Russian strike on Kharkiv Oblast dam threatens water supply.

Russia attacked the Pechenihy dam on Dec. 7, threatening the reservoir that supplies water to Kharkiv, Ukraine's second-largest city.

⚡️Son of president who shut down US corruption watchdogs slams Ukraine for corruption.

Donald Trump Jr. warned on Dec. 7 that his father may walk away from Ukraine, parroting Kremlin propaganda about corruption in Kyiv driving Russia's full-scale war against Ukraine.

Ukraine war latest: Ukrainian drones score ‘successful hit’ on Russia’s Ryazan Oil Refinery, General Staff says

Ukrainian forces scored another “successful hit” on Russia’s Ryazan Oil Refinery overnight on Dec. 5-6, the General Staff has confirmed, marking the ninth such strike on the refinery this year.

While, the protective shield built to prevent radiation leaking from the Chornobyl nuclear power plant needs to be repaired promptly after a drone strike earlier this year damaged the steel structure, the International Atomic Energy Agency said on Dec. 5.

⚡️Trump 'disappointed,' claims Zelensky hasn't read US peace plan.

U.S. President Donald Trump said Dec. 7 he was "disappointed" that President Volodymyr Zelensky allegedly had not yet reviewed a U.S. peace proposal to end the war in Ukraine.

⚡️ US defense bill proposes $400 million a year in military aid for Ukraine through 2027.

Congress is also calling for more frequent reporting of aid provided to Kyiv by its European allies, reflecting Washington's push for Europe to take on a greater share of responsibility for supporting Ukraine.

⚡️Ukraine's Unmanned Systems Forces commander hits back at Russia's international arrest warrant.

Russia has accused Robert "Madyar" Brovdi in absentia of organizing an alleged terrorist attack in Russia's Kursk Oblast.

🔹 These are the indicative estimates of Russia’s combat losses as of Dec. 8, according to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 08/12/2025 11:16

Kyiv Post

🔹 “Steady rather than spectacular” —
Kyiv strikes an optimistic tone after Zelensky’s “very substantive” call with US envoys as he pivots to a crucial round of European diplomacy.

🔸 Ukraine is conducting search-and-assault operations in Pokrovsk and holding defensive lines in Myrnohrad amid ongoing Russian attacks.

🔹 Trump’s public impatience with Kyiv adds new pressure to already-strained negotiations and rattles allies watching for signs of a US course correction.

🔸 Donald Trump criticized President Zelensky, saying he was “a little disappointed” that Zelensky had not yet read Washington’s proposal.

“We spoke with President Putin, and we spoke with Ukrainian leaders, including President Zelensky… and I have to say I’m a little disappointed that President Zelensky hasn’t yet read the proposal,”

Trump said after US–Ukraine talks in Miami ended without agreement on security guarantees, territory, or concerns the American plan could be overly favorable to Russia.

🔹 Russian troops register killed soldiers as AWOL to hide losses, while Ukrainian forces repel urban attacks and secure supply routes in Pokrovsk and Myrnohrad.

MagicFox · 08/12/2025 18:43

just wanted to post this substack piece by Velina Tchakarova because I agree with it and think it’s timely:

Europe Is Not Alone. It Is Geopolitically Asleep.

The new European voices claiming that Donald Trump’s United States is now a second adversary, alongside Vladimir Putin’s Russia, rests on a profound misunderstanding of the international system that has already emerged. It reflects the same strategic passivity that has plagued Europe for three decades: a refusal to recognize the arrival of Cold War 2 and to accept Europe’s own responsibilities in it. The story is not that Europe has been abandoned. The story is that Europe has failed to grow up geopolitically.
Cold War 2: Europe Is a Frontline, Not a Victim
For years I have argued that we are living in Cold War 2 as a systemic and structural confrontation between the United States and the DragonBear, the institutionalized modus operandi of strategic coordination between China and Russia. This is not a rhetorical metaphor; it is a global, system-wide bifurcation across economy, technology, energy, finance, infrastructure, and defence.
Europe is not “alone between two enemies.” Europe is the central frontline of one of the two global operating systems in this new confrontation. The DragonBear destabilizes Europe through revisionist warfare, energy leverage, technological penetration, dual-use military support, and political influence operations. The United States, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, is shifting to a hemispheric-first posture, a long-term trend accelerated but not created by the Trump White House.
But America is not Europe’s adversary. It is a great power recalibrating its strategic bandwidth. Confusing a pivoting ally with an existential enemy is a fundamental analytical error.
Trump’s NSS Does Not Make the US an Adversary, It Exposes Europe’s Strategic Adolescence
The new US National Security Strategy does something deeply uncomfortable for Europeans: it stops pretending that Europe is a co-equal security provider. The document bluntly codifies the American expectation that Europe should take primary responsibility for its own continent while the United States focuses on defending the Western Hemisphere and deterring China in the Indo-Pacific.
This is not “betrayal.” It is the logical consequence of Europe’s decades-long underperformance. It is also something European elites have secretly known but refused to articulate publicly: Europe cannot rely on the United States as its primary hard-power provider in Cold War 2 amid the ongoing Russian war on Ukraine and the growing Chinese assertiveness on the global arena.
That is not abandonment, it is a bill arriving after 30 years of strategic complacency.
Russia Is a Revisionist Power. The United States Is a Frustrated Ally. These Are Not the Same.
Russia wants to revise borders, destabilize institutions, and fracture the Western operating system. The United States wants Europe to stop acting like a dependent and start acting like a strategic pillar.
One is an adversary of the European security order. The other is demanding that Europe finally defend that order and show skin in the game. Converging these two actors into a single “threat” may feel emotionally satisfying, but it obscures the real problem: Europe has never made the transition from geopolitical adolescence to geopolitical adulthood. The long proclaimed “strategic autonomy” has never materialised and it was not America’s fault.
Europe’s Real Failure: Strategic Passivity Masquerading as Moral Conviction
For years, I have warned of Europe’s strategic passivity as a deeply rooted mindset shaped by comfort, ideology, and wishful thinking – moral lectures instead of military build-up and hard power projection, regulatory activism instead of credible deterrence, normative declarations instead of capabilities, and EU communiqués in place of real strategy.
Europe is not short of resources; it is short of political will and the Mindset to act. It is not short of leverage; it is short of courage and skin in the game.
Ukraine has revealed both truths and illusions: Europe wields real economic power through sanctions, frozen assets, or reconstruction funds, yet it depends on the United States for the strategic enablers that keep Ukraine alive. That is not a sustainable model for a continent on the frontline of the new Cold War.
Europe Must Stop Looking for a Psychological Exit
The idea that Europe is “alone” is attractive because it creates a psychological escape route: if Europe is abandoned, then Europe is not responsible to act. But the reality is harsher: Europe is responsible because Europe is a regional power, just one that refuses to act like one.
Here is the brutal realty:
The United States is not going to solve Europe’s worst security crisis.
Russia is not going to stop challenging Europe’s borders.
China is not going to stop expanding its influence across Eurasia, the Middle East, and the Global South.
The DragonBear axis is not going to soften; it is institutionalizing and it is competing with the United States on all fronts and in all domains right now.
To conclude, Europe is not “alone.” Europe is finally exposed, by its own choices or lack of such.
The Only Path Forward: Become the Credible European Pillar of the West
Europe must define itself not as a victim or a supplicant, but as a credible and respected pillar of the Western operating system. That requires a systemic course correction. Here are the strategic priorities I propose:
1. Re-arm Europe for Cold War 2
Move from symbolic spending announcements to concrete capability scaling by investing in and boosting air and missile defense; long-range strike capabilities, ammunition production, cyber and space assets, and hardening of infrastructure and critical supply chains.
2. Integrate Ukraine as a Security Producer, Not a Permanent Recipient
Ukraine is not Europe’s burden; it is Europe’s frontline partner and its most existential defender. Its defense industry, battlefield innovation, and societal resilience must be fused directly into Europe’s security architecture now, not after EU’s accession.
3. Reduce Dependence on Both the DragonBear and the United States
Strategic autonomy does not mean equidistance. It means eliminating critical dependencies and vulerabilities. Europe must be willing and able to defend itself while remaining fully anchored in the transatlantic system.
4. Link the European and Indo-Pacific Theatres
Cold War 2 is global. A Russian victory in Ukraine would accelerate Chinese coercion in the Indo-Pacific. A Taiwan crisis would drain US resources away from Europe. Europe must defend its theatre to prevent a systemic chain reaction.
Three Key Recommendations for a European Policy Response:
Europe must finally act as a geopolitical unit and not as a fragmented regulatory bloc.
Europe should consolidate strategic capacity in defense, industry, and energy. This means coordinated defense procurement, a continental defense industrial base, and a common energy strategy that reduces external dependencies. Without this, Europe will remain an object of US strategy rather than a subject in the global system.
Europe must prepare for a negotiated endgame in the Ukraine war that protects European security interests. Given the American pivot toward settlement, Europe must proactively develop its own long-term security architecture for the eastern flank which is turning into the new Iron Curtain, including credible deterrence, reconstruction planning, and long-horizon containment strategies for Russia given its comprehensive hybrid warfare against the European security order, political systems, economic model and societial resilience. If Europe remains passive, Washington, Beijing and Moscow will shape the future outcome without European agency.
Europe must reposition itself in Cold War 2 by reducing asymmetric dependencies on both the United States and China. Europe requires a third-way strategy that preserves Atlantic alignment but protects strategic autonomy in trade, technology, and energy. This includes securing rare earths, diversifying supply chains, investing in next-generation dual-use capabilities, and avoiding becoming a subordinate appendage of either Washington or Beijing.
Europe is not Alone
Europe’s problem is not that it is alone. Europe’s problem is that it is still in denial about the world it lives in.
We have entered a world of hard power, spheres of influence, and techno-industrial blocs. The DragonBear is coordinated, purposeful, and increasingly confident as it has the Mindset of “Winner takes all” in this new global confrontation. America is recalibrating, exhausted by decades of failed interventions and limitless security guarantees. In Cold War 2, the United States seeks to prevent the DragonBear from gaining strategic momentum. And Europe is still hoping that the rules of the 1990s can be resurrected through declarations and diplomacy. That world is gone.
Europe’s task is not to fear abandonment. It is to take responsibility – for itself, for Ukraine, and for its role in the wider struggle that defines our era.
Europe is not alone. It is simply late. And history does not wait for latecomers.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 20:13

I agree with a fair chunk of that.

But there are some important areas it's demonstrably false. Not in any kind of way which makes me happy.

I'll try to write something longer and actually meaningful about this, though I'm sorry I can't write easily at the moment and am very slow.

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 21:13

MagicFox · 08/12/2025 18:43

just wanted to post this substack piece by Velina Tchakarova because I agree with it and think it’s timely:

Europe Is Not Alone. It Is Geopolitically Asleep.

The new European voices claiming that Donald Trump’s United States is now a second adversary, alongside Vladimir Putin’s Russia, rests on a profound misunderstanding of the international system that has already emerged. It reflects the same strategic passivity that has plagued Europe for three decades: a refusal to recognize the arrival of Cold War 2 and to accept Europe’s own responsibilities in it. The story is not that Europe has been abandoned. The story is that Europe has failed to grow up geopolitically.
Cold War 2: Europe Is a Frontline, Not a Victim
For years I have argued that we are living in Cold War 2 as a systemic and structural confrontation between the United States and the DragonBear, the institutionalized modus operandi of strategic coordination between China and Russia. This is not a rhetorical metaphor; it is a global, system-wide bifurcation across economy, technology, energy, finance, infrastructure, and defence.
Europe is not “alone between two enemies.” Europe is the central frontline of one of the two global operating systems in this new confrontation. The DragonBear destabilizes Europe through revisionist warfare, energy leverage, technological penetration, dual-use military support, and political influence operations. The United States, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, is shifting to a hemispheric-first posture, a long-term trend accelerated but not created by the Trump White House.
But America is not Europe’s adversary. It is a great power recalibrating its strategic bandwidth. Confusing a pivoting ally with an existential enemy is a fundamental analytical error.
Trump’s NSS Does Not Make the US an Adversary, It Exposes Europe’s Strategic Adolescence
The new US National Security Strategy does something deeply uncomfortable for Europeans: it stops pretending that Europe is a co-equal security provider. The document bluntly codifies the American expectation that Europe should take primary responsibility for its own continent while the United States focuses on defending the Western Hemisphere and deterring China in the Indo-Pacific.
This is not “betrayal.” It is the logical consequence of Europe’s decades-long underperformance. It is also something European elites have secretly known but refused to articulate publicly: Europe cannot rely on the United States as its primary hard-power provider in Cold War 2 amid the ongoing Russian war on Ukraine and the growing Chinese assertiveness on the global arena.
That is not abandonment, it is a bill arriving after 30 years of strategic complacency.
Russia Is a Revisionist Power. The United States Is a Frustrated Ally. These Are Not the Same.
Russia wants to revise borders, destabilize institutions, and fracture the Western operating system. The United States wants Europe to stop acting like a dependent and start acting like a strategic pillar.
One is an adversary of the European security order. The other is demanding that Europe finally defend that order and show skin in the game. Converging these two actors into a single “threat” may feel emotionally satisfying, but it obscures the real problem: Europe has never made the transition from geopolitical adolescence to geopolitical adulthood. The long proclaimed “strategic autonomy” has never materialised and it was not America’s fault.
Europe’s Real Failure: Strategic Passivity Masquerading as Moral Conviction
For years, I have warned of Europe’s strategic passivity as a deeply rooted mindset shaped by comfort, ideology, and wishful thinking – moral lectures instead of military build-up and hard power projection, regulatory activism instead of credible deterrence, normative declarations instead of capabilities, and EU communiqués in place of real strategy.
Europe is not short of resources; it is short of political will and the Mindset to act. It is not short of leverage; it is short of courage and skin in the game.
Ukraine has revealed both truths and illusions: Europe wields real economic power through sanctions, frozen assets, or reconstruction funds, yet it depends on the United States for the strategic enablers that keep Ukraine alive. That is not a sustainable model for a continent on the frontline of the new Cold War.
Europe Must Stop Looking for a Psychological Exit
The idea that Europe is “alone” is attractive because it creates a psychological escape route: if Europe is abandoned, then Europe is not responsible to act. But the reality is harsher: Europe is responsible because Europe is a regional power, just one that refuses to act like one.
Here is the brutal realty:
The United States is not going to solve Europe’s worst security crisis.
Russia is not going to stop challenging Europe’s borders.
China is not going to stop expanding its influence across Eurasia, the Middle East, and the Global South.
The DragonBear axis is not going to soften; it is institutionalizing and it is competing with the United States on all fronts and in all domains right now.
To conclude, Europe is not “alone.” Europe is finally exposed, by its own choices or lack of such.
The Only Path Forward: Become the Credible European Pillar of the West
Europe must define itself not as a victim or a supplicant, but as a credible and respected pillar of the Western operating system. That requires a systemic course correction. Here are the strategic priorities I propose:
1. Re-arm Europe for Cold War 2
Move from symbolic spending announcements to concrete capability scaling by investing in and boosting air and missile defense; long-range strike capabilities, ammunition production, cyber and space assets, and hardening of infrastructure and critical supply chains.
2. Integrate Ukraine as a Security Producer, Not a Permanent Recipient
Ukraine is not Europe’s burden; it is Europe’s frontline partner and its most existential defender. Its defense industry, battlefield innovation, and societal resilience must be fused directly into Europe’s security architecture now, not after EU’s accession.
3. Reduce Dependence on Both the DragonBear and the United States
Strategic autonomy does not mean equidistance. It means eliminating critical dependencies and vulerabilities. Europe must be willing and able to defend itself while remaining fully anchored in the transatlantic system.
4. Link the European and Indo-Pacific Theatres
Cold War 2 is global. A Russian victory in Ukraine would accelerate Chinese coercion in the Indo-Pacific. A Taiwan crisis would drain US resources away from Europe. Europe must defend its theatre to prevent a systemic chain reaction.
Three Key Recommendations for a European Policy Response:
Europe must finally act as a geopolitical unit and not as a fragmented regulatory bloc.
Europe should consolidate strategic capacity in defense, industry, and energy. This means coordinated defense procurement, a continental defense industrial base, and a common energy strategy that reduces external dependencies. Without this, Europe will remain an object of US strategy rather than a subject in the global system.
Europe must prepare for a negotiated endgame in the Ukraine war that protects European security interests. Given the American pivot toward settlement, Europe must proactively develop its own long-term security architecture for the eastern flank which is turning into the new Iron Curtain, including credible deterrence, reconstruction planning, and long-horizon containment strategies for Russia given its comprehensive hybrid warfare against the European security order, political systems, economic model and societial resilience. If Europe remains passive, Washington, Beijing and Moscow will shape the future outcome without European agency.
Europe must reposition itself in Cold War 2 by reducing asymmetric dependencies on both the United States and China. Europe requires a third-way strategy that preserves Atlantic alignment but protects strategic autonomy in trade, technology, and energy. This includes securing rare earths, diversifying supply chains, investing in next-generation dual-use capabilities, and avoiding becoming a subordinate appendage of either Washington or Beijing.
Europe is not Alone
Europe’s problem is not that it is alone. Europe’s problem is that it is still in denial about the world it lives in.
We have entered a world of hard power, spheres of influence, and techno-industrial blocs. The DragonBear is coordinated, purposeful, and increasingly confident as it has the Mindset of “Winner takes all” in this new global confrontation. America is recalibrating, exhausted by decades of failed interventions and limitless security guarantees. In Cold War 2, the United States seeks to prevent the DragonBear from gaining strategic momentum. And Europe is still hoping that the rules of the 1990s can be resurrected through declarations and diplomacy. That world is gone.
Europe’s task is not to fear abandonment. It is to take responsibility – for itself, for Ukraine, and for its role in the wider struggle that defines our era.
Europe is not alone. It is simply late. And history does not wait for latecomers.

That is a really good article and articulates far better my viewpoint than I could ever write.

Quite simply Europeans need to recognise that they can no longer expect a free ride on US defence spending. Europe needs to be responsible for a European war where Ukraine is the front line.

We see a lot of warm words from European leaders from European leaders but warm words don't stop Ukrainian land falling into Russian hands or Ukrainian soldiers dying - what does is 155mm ammunition.

I see a lot of posters keen to lay the blame at the US and accuse Trump of cosying up to Putin whilst at the same time shying away to increased European defence spending or the introduction of voluntary national service. Right now all it costs Europe to defend Europe is defence aid to Ukraine, the Ukrainians meanwhile are paying for Europe's defence with lives.

If I was Putin then absolutely I would believe that after Ukraine why not go for another European country because they clearly aren't willing to fight or support each other.

What really worries me is that all Europe will provide Ukraine is warm words despite the US asking them to increase defence spending since Kennedy in the 1960s (so it's not as though they haven't had enough notice). The war in Ukraine will end in either Ukraine running out of manpower and collapsing or more likely a humiliating hand over of territory.

The Europeans (as well as many posters here) will learn nothing from this and simply blame the US and big bad Trump. China will offer to reconstruct Ukraine at favourable terms in return for a pro Chinese stance. Russia will start eyeing up Moldova as well as asymmetric disruptive war in the rest of Europe (computer hacking, sub sea cables and pipelines damaged, drones at airports etc).

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 21:19

@1dayatatime , I don't remember seeing a single poster here shying away from increased European defence spending.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 21:19

That's going too far @1dayatatime

I see a lot of posters keen to lay the blame at the US and accuse Trump of cosying up to Putin whilst at the same time shying away to increased European defence spending or the introduction of voluntary national service

People aren't stupid - they can see what's happening. And no, most posters here are all in favour of increasing EU defense spending and I bet a fair few in favour of voluntary national service. As is happening in some countries.

What really worries me is that all Europe will provide Ukraine is warm words despite the US asking them to increase defence spending since Kennedy in the 1960s (so it's not as though they haven't had enough notice)

The EU has provided more money than the US and a LOT of arms to the point of stripping their own defense services to the bone. The UK has virtually no artillery left now because it's all in Ukraine.

So no, it is not just 'warm words' and it is insulting, false and misleading to state that it is.

notimagain · 08/12/2025 21:25

I think: "Europe is not short of resources; it is short of political will and the Mindset to act." sums it up.

Yet another round of meetings today, more in a few days....sanctions proving difficult again..looking at you Belgium..

And meanwhile elsewhere any hint of national service (even if only for youngsters to serve in civilian roles) is met with gasps of horror.

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 21:27

I think: "Europe is not short of resources; it is short of political will and the Mindset to act." sums it up.

Yes, I agree to a considerable extent with that.

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 22:44

PerkingFaintly · 08/12/2025 21:19

@1dayatatime , I don't remember seeing a single poster here shying away from increased European defence spending.

A fair point regarding posters on Ukrainian threads but on other threads involving Government spending and economics there is a strong view that defence spending should be de prioritised compared to say health, education or social welfare.

Meanwhile there is the Green Party that wants to abolish the minimum 2% defence spending and then redirect defence spending to "international cooperation and sustainable security".

Lastly I found this article on national service in Germany very interesting :

https://news.sky.com/video/german-conscription-vert-zna-061225-mp4-13479935

Are Gen Z willing to die for their country?

Sky News speaks to students protesting in Germany as they fear a return to conscription after the country's parliament agreed on a new plan to revamp military service.

https://news.sky.com/video/german-conscription-vert-zna-061225-mp4-13479935

1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 22:55

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 21:19

That's going too far @1dayatatime

I see a lot of posters keen to lay the blame at the US and accuse Trump of cosying up to Putin whilst at the same time shying away to increased European defence spending or the introduction of voluntary national service

People aren't stupid - they can see what's happening. And no, most posters here are all in favour of increasing EU defense spending and I bet a fair few in favour of voluntary national service. As is happening in some countries.

What really worries me is that all Europe will provide Ukraine is warm words despite the US asking them to increase defence spending since Kennedy in the 1960s (so it's not as though they haven't had enough notice)

The EU has provided more money than the US and a LOT of arms to the point of stripping their own defense services to the bone. The UK has virtually no artillery left now because it's all in Ukraine.

So no, it is not just 'warm words' and it is insulting, false and misleading to state that it is.

Edited

It should absolutely be the case that Europe should be contributing more military aid to a European war than the US is to a European war but historically this has not been the case :

Furthermore as a percent of GDP Europe has been spending significantly less than the US since the 1960s. So despite spending much more than other European countries the UK was historically still spending around half as much as the US in percentage of GDP towards defence, so it's no surprise that they are running out of ammunition.

As for Spain, Portugal and Italy I mean they are truly taking the piss.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
1dayatatime · 08/12/2025 23:01

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/12/2025 21:19

That's going too far @1dayatatime

I see a lot of posters keen to lay the blame at the US and accuse Trump of cosying up to Putin whilst at the same time shying away to increased European defence spending or the introduction of voluntary national service

People aren't stupid - they can see what's happening. And no, most posters here are all in favour of increasing EU defense spending and I bet a fair few in favour of voluntary national service. As is happening in some countries.

What really worries me is that all Europe will provide Ukraine is warm words despite the US asking them to increase defence spending since Kennedy in the 1960s (so it's not as though they haven't had enough notice)

The EU has provided more money than the US and a LOT of arms to the point of stripping their own defense services to the bone. The UK has virtually no artillery left now because it's all in Ukraine.

So no, it is not just 'warm words' and it is insulting, false and misleading to state that it is.

Edited

I agree people aren't stupid and can see what is happening. US taxpayers have finally had enough paying for the defence of Europe when all along this should have been funded by European taxpayers.

Instead European taxpayers used the money instead for things like Universal healthcare, welfare programs and generous state pensions- things that were not available to US taxpayers.

Trump driven in my opinion by ego thought he could get a negotiated peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. When this has proved not possible the US are walking away, telling the Europeans to fund a European war.

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